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Identity crisis (Read 2363 times)
Reply #30 - Mar 6th, 2004 at 6:26pm

Hagar   Offline
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Quote:
Ah mystery solved as to the kites ID, but the helmet still puzzles....

Does this look familiar?

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WWII Italian M33 Army Helmet
With leather suspension and web chin strap.

Elements of 807 Squadron were based in Italy for several weeks. Of course, this might be completely irrelevant. There's no indication if the marshaller is anything to do with the squadron. Wink
 
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Reply #31 - Mar 6th, 2004 at 6:38pm

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It could well be THE ANSWER Doug, I know how many err souvenirs my great uncles acquired, including a Knights Cross and a few pistols etc etc... One of them did hand in the Panzerfaust when he found out how dangerous they were and his wife insisted it wasn't staying on the livingroom wall any longer Grin
 
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Reply #32 - Mar 6th, 2004 at 6:41pm

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Guys, not Italy. That plane is in full invasion stripes and that places it in the ETO circa June 1944. It is certainly a MkIIc and not a Ib (six stack exhusts and it has a C wing fitted and only the IIc was used with clipped wings). My guess is that it was one of the aircraft used for target spotting. Both the RN and USN used Spitfire V's and Seafire II's for this duty arround D-Day and it simply could just be a plane borrowed from its unit for this duty as was the case with most aircraft used in this way.
Ozzy, the Airfix Spit Vc/Seafire L III kit has everything you need to build a Seafire Ib, IIc and IIIc right from the box. All you need is a third party set of decals.
 
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Reply #33 - Mar 6th, 2004 at 6:50pm

Hagar   Offline
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Tempest. I'm not saying the photo was taken in Italy, simply that the squadron had served there previously with the DAF. This could explain the tropical filter & the helmet. It all seems to fit nicely - maybe too nicely. Wink

Quote:
807 Squadron FAA
Aircraft

Fulmar I Sept 1940-April 1941  
Fulmar II April 1941-June 1942  
Sea Hurricane Nov 1941- Nov 1941  
Seafire Ib June 1942 -Sept 1942  
SeafireL.IIc June 1942 -Oct 1944
SeafireL.III June 1944 -end of WW2  

Squadron detachments were lent to the Desert Air Force in Italy for several weeks in April 1944, then the whole squadron took part in the South of France Operation Dragoon landings in HMS Hunter in August 1944, when the squadron inflicted considerable damage to locomotives and road transport.
 
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Reply #34 - Mar 6th, 2004 at 7:00pm

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For some reason I feel that I can sit back and feel smug now.... Grin
 
Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #35 - Mar 6th, 2004 at 7:04pm

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Woodie aren't your legs numb enough already from sitting on that the piece of Royal Daltons finest for months on end? Grin Grin Grin
 
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Reply #36 - Mar 6th, 2004 at 7:06pm

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Hagar old pal, I do agree with you about the 807 connection and I knew they used the IIc in the Med until around October '44 when they were replaced by the L IIIc. I still think this is a borrowed machine and that would explain the Vokes filter on a plane in the ETO.
 
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Reply #37 - Mar 6th, 2004 at 7:08pm

Woodlouse2002   Offline
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I shall sit back and put my feet up atop the towel rail to get the circulation going. With a vast feeling of smugness still mind... Grin
 
Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #38 - Mar 6th, 2004 at 7:13pm

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Quote:
Hagar old pal, I do agree with you about the 807 connection and I knew they used the IIc in the Med until around October '44 when they were replaced by the L IIIc. I still think this is a borrowed machine and that would explain the Vokes filter on a plane in the ETO.

But Hagar's info tells us that this squadron supported landings in the south of France. This with serving in the Med and Italy more than explains the filter and would explaint the invasion stripes. Anyway, I thought invasion stripes became standered for all aircraft in all theatres after a point.
 
Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #39 - Mar 7th, 2004 at 6:50am

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Quote:
But Hagar's info tells us that this squadron supported landings in the south of France. This with serving in the Med and Italy more than explains the filter and would explaint the invasion stripes. Anyway, I thought invasion stripes became standered for all aircraft in all theatres after a point.

Woody, when was the last time you saw a Seafire or Hellcat or Coursair in the Pacific theater with invasion stripes? Invasion stripes were applied to allied aircraft taking part in operation Overlord. They were not used in any other theater of war again until Royal Navy aircraft used them during the Korean conflict. I'm not disputing the fact that 807 squadron served in Italy and North Africa, what I am disputing is that this photo was taken in Italy which it clearly was not. There is no evidence to say this is even an 807 squadron aircraft. I think it was Mark that said it could have been an aircraft intended for use in Malta but did not get delivered.
 
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Reply #40 - Mar 7th, 2004 at 7:31am

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It could be a case of an emergency transfer. It wasn't unknown for sqns to swap aircraft to others when shortages prevailed, and this Seafire II could easily have ended up serving with an RAF sqn. briefly during overlord... If I find out anymore about this particular kite I promise I'll post it.

Ozzy Wink
 
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Reply #41 - Mar 7th, 2004 at 7:57am

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Invasion stripes were applied to allied aircraft taking part in operation Overlord. They were not used in any other theater of war again until Royal Navy aircraft used them during the Korean conflict.

I'm not sure this is quite correct Tempest. Invasion markings were certanly used on aircraft in the Sicily campaign in July 1943. This is besides the point. The question is - once aircraft in the ETO were painted with "D-Day" stripes were they ever removed & if so, when?

This is what Ozzy said about the photo in a previous reply. Quote:
it is indeed a Seafire II with the clipped wings (incredibly rare!) and the Vokes filter.
Well done that man  
Oh and this photo was taken in '44 at a small refit base in France.

Assuming this is true, what was a Seafire with a tropical filter doing in France with invasion stripes? I suggest my theory is as good as any & I'm surprised you can't see that. Roll Eyes

We know that 807 Squadron used this particular mark of Seafire in support of Operation Dragoon which took place in August 1944.* That puts it in France, albeit in the South, at the right time. As this was a combined operation with US forces taking place a short time after D-Day I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that the aircraft would also have the invasion stripes. If that was not the case the Seafire could have been sent to the refit base to have them painted on before being used elsewhere.

As for the helmet, if the marshaller is part of the squadron he could have picked it up when they served in Italy. This is less important as he might be someone on the base staff.

*PS Operation Dragoon (first named Anvil) was originally planned to coincide with the Normandy invasion. Quote:
Planned originally as a simultaneous complement to OVERLORD, the cross-Channel attack on Normandy, ANVIL actually took place over two months later, on 15 August 1944, making it appear almost an afterthought to the main Allied offensive in northern Europe. Yet the success of ANVIL and the ensuing capture of the great southern French ports of Toulon and Marseilles, together with the subsequent drive north up the Rhone River valley to Lyon and Dijon, were ultimately to provide critical support to the Normandy-based armies finally moving east toward the German border.
 
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Reply #42 - Mar 7th, 2004 at 9:06am

Woodlouse2002   Offline
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I'm with Hagar on this one. I'm sure by 1944 aircraft operating in southern europe would have had invasion stripes. It would make sense to do so if in north europe the fighters and AA gunners where blatting away at anything flying with out them. Therefore the presence of invasion stripes does not place the aircraft in Northern France.

However the only way to know for sure where the photo was taken is to find the guy who took it. And without him around I think its perfectly acceptable to guess it was taken in the south of france or Italy. Which would explain the tin hat and the Vokes filter.
 
Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #43 - Mar 7th, 2004 at 3:06pm

Hagar   Offline
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As an aside, I found a couple of interesting sites while researching all this. Here's a very interesting article on the Seafire. No author credited but it can only be by the great man himself, Eric "Winkle" Brown. http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/aircraft/WWII/seafire/sea-info/sea_info.htm

This extract should amuse Ozzy.
Quote:
The Seafire L Mk IIC was the most exciting aircraft that I had flown to that time. Its initial climb rate and acceleration were little short of magnificent, and at maximum boost it could maintain 4,600 ft/mm (23,36 m/sec) upto 6,000 ft (1 830 in).
.................

My enthusiasm for this new Seafire variant was such that, one afternoon, in sheer exhilaration, I looped it around both spans of the Forth Bridge in succession - court-martial stuff nowadays but during a war nobody has the time to bother with such formalities.


This comment made me wonder why RAF pilots would need to know how to trap on a carrier. Roll Eyes
Quote:
Between 29 December 1942 and 3 January 1943, I had had the task of giving Seafire deck landing instruction to No 65(F) "East India" Squadron, RAF

He mentions another incident very similar to the one with AB910.
Quote:
It was about this time that I witnessed a very unusual incident at Machrihanish when the airfield was alerted that a Seafire being flown by Lt David Wilkinson (later to be killed in a flying accident) had a mechanic wrapped around its rear end! The mechanic, a rating appropriately enough named Overhead, had apparently been lying on the tail of the Seafire to hold it down while running up on the deck of a carrier in the Clyde area. Wilkinson had throttled back to let the mechanic off, but due to a misunderstanding, the mechanic had remained where he was and the Seafire had taken-off with him clinging on for dear life. The pilot could not account for the extraordinary tail-heaviness of his Seafire until he was alerted by radio of the situation. He promptly headed for Machrihanish at low level and slow cruise, the slipstream clamping the unfortunate mechanic in position. A straight-in approach to the runway and a wheeler landing to keep the tail up as long as possible, and the mechanic's ordeal was over - he suffered shock and the effects of cold, but was otherwise totally unhurt.

I also found this which seem to confirm that the Operation Dragoon aircraft had invasion stripes. http://www.usaaftroopcarrier.com/Historical%20Overview.htm
Quote:
In an effort to prevent the "friendly fire" that downed so many TC aircraft in Sicily, USAAF and British aircraft were painted with large, easily recognizable black and white "invasion stripes" on their fuselages and wings. Nevertheless, navy gunners shot down six British troop carrier aircraft flying in a 50-ship serial on 7 June, as the final glider serials of NEPTUNE flew to their LZs.
 
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Reply #44 - Mar 7th, 2004 at 5:10pm

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I'm reasonably sure that the other type of invason stripes were different to the Overlord stripes, but I can't find a photo just now. In fact I'm sure these were Theater type stripes and were in other coloures as well as black and white.
Quote:
I'm not sure this is quite correct Tempest. Invasion markings were certanly used on aircraft in the Sicily campaign in July 1943. This is besides the point. The question is - once aircraft in the ETO were painted with "D-Day" stripes were they ever removed & if so, when? 

Invasion stripes on Overlord aircraft were partially removed in July 1944 and fully in Jan 1945. Newly delivered aircraft in this period often did not have any stripes applied at all.
I'm not saying I'm correct or that anyone else is wrong or rigth, but I should point out that the caption with that photo says:
Quote:
A Seafire battles the mud at a repair and salvage unit in Normandy, July 1944

Anyway, whoever is right, I've enjoyed this little debate Wink Seafires are my "thing" at the moment and I'd love to find out more about this aircraft because as I said earlier, it would make a great subject for a model.
 
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