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Trim Problems (Read 1754 times)
Mar 5th, 2004 at 12:31am

paddlefoot64   Offline
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It seems that when adjusting elevator trim (usually with the
number pad) that it is very hard to achieve trim. The keys seem too sensitive, resulting in see-sawing up and down. Is there some setting that can adjust this?
 

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Reply #1 - Mar 5th, 2004 at 2:35am
EA_KATL   Ex Member

 
Hello the way i have mine setup is on my joystick.to do this in the sim click on options then go to controls then assignments.on the screen change event category to control surface commands then scroll down to elevator trim up and click on it then click change assignments and click on what ever button you want to use then do the samething with elevator trim down.and be shure that the repeat slider is pulled all the way to the left.i allso have my left and right brake set up on the joystick to aid in taxieing tail dragers.for the brakes its best to put the repeat slider in the middle setting.hope this helps you out.
« Last Edit: Mar 5th, 2004 at 3:45am by N/A »  
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Reply #2 - Mar 5th, 2004 at 5:03am

Staiduk   Offline
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Buttons or stick; I've never seen a problem with insensetive trim; except for addon aircraft. Something to consider: When trimming an aircraft in flight; the trim is only half the equation. The other half is throttle settings; something most people forget or don't realize. Most flight sim players I know use trim in this fashion: Take off with full throttle, keep throttle full thoughout the flight, throttle back only when landing.
Under these conditions, trim doesn't work very well. Reason: Once you bring your aircraft to level flight and set your trim, since your throttle's at max, it'll continue to accellerate. More speed, more lift, the 'plane climbs.
Plane climbs, loses speed, lift drops, plane descends. Usually at just about the time the player has the plane trimmed to the new level.
Use trim in this fashion; You'll find it much easier to achieve hands-off flight. Use the simplified acronym PAT. Power, Attitude, Trim. Step 1: Once you've reached cruise altitude, set your throttle so you're flying straight and level at a given speed. (It's the throttle, not the elevators, that determines a 'plane's trim.)
Let's use the example of a c-172. You've taken off at a comfortable 55kts, climbed to 1000agl and are heading for another airport. Throttle back to 100kts. (Power.) Use the elevators to keep the VSI at 0. (Attitude) Once the aircraft is flying comfortably at 100kts, (this should take all of 5 seconds), trim to hands-off flight. (Trim)
Practice that, and practice in the 172 - even in the sim-world it's the ideal trainer aircraft.
 

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Reply #3 - Mar 5th, 2004 at 5:28am
EA_KATL   Ex Member

 
Staiduk.thats not the way its done in the real world.yes once you have the plane trimed at your set speed if you change the speed setting you will be outa trim and have to retrim it to stay straight and level.but even the auto pilot uses the trim to keep the plane flying straight and level at any given speed.but if that works for you great.but i change my trim for take off,at cruise alt,and before landing.and thats going by the real world book.that trim has an important role in the aircraft.if it wasnt needed it wouldnt be there.but if i read what your saying correctly.then your saying dont use the trim and use only power.then thats not going by the book.in the real world doing it that way might cost you your life. no matter what your air speed is as long as your above stall speed you can trim that airplane to fly straight and level.
 
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Reply #4 - Mar 5th, 2004 at 5:59am

Staiduk   Offline
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EA - Sorry; that's not what I meant. Throttle and trim must be used together; in the way I described above. Set power, attitude; then trim out. Trimming to a descent for instance: From level; back off the throttle to descent power. The aircraft will begin to descend. Use the elevators (very sparingly) to regulate the descent, then trim to hands-off configuration. Moving back to level; instead of PAT use APT: Bring the 'plane to level attitude, increase to cruise power, then retrim. Climbing, use APT again.
It's the effective combination of your 'plane's attitude, power and trim that gives easy, hands off flight. As for the autopilot, it has its own ways of doing things. Ignore it. In 16 years of flying; I've never used one yet.
Cheers!
 

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Reply #5 - Mar 5th, 2004 at 7:00am

paddlefoot64   Offline
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I understand all of this. My problem is that most aircraft will
not even take off until I trim considerable nose up. The only aircraft I don't seem to have trouble with is the Cub. With the mouse pointer on the trim area, it will tell me the positive or negative trim percentage. I'm wondering if something hasn't corrupted some code in FS9.
 

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Reply #6 - Mar 5th, 2004 at 7:14am

Staiduk   Offline
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That is odd - it isn't a flying issue; most likely it's something going on with the sim, so I can't be of any help. The only time I've seen that so far is if I screw up and turn the 737's AP on before takeoff; though I doubt that's your problem. (lol) Hopefully, someone who understands FS9 will be able to help better. Smiley
 

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Reply #7 - Mar 5th, 2004 at 8:57am
EA_KATL   Ex Member

 
paddlefoot64.have you saved a flight and restart at that same saved flight if so the trim is going to be where it was when you saved it.and if thats not the case have you changed the weight settings.or made any changes to any files.this is a first of hearing that full trim is needed for take off.what joystick are you useing?.Staiduk if i missed read your post sorry about that surffering from lack of sleep me is. Sad
 
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Reply #8 - Mar 5th, 2004 at 3:37pm

paddlefoot64   Offline
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I am using a Logitech Wingman Attack2 and sometimes a CH
USB yoke and USB pedals. Both have similar problems. Very hard to even out the trim. A couple of 7 keys and it dives, a couple of 1 keys and it climbs. One keystroke doesn't seem to make a change. Now in the Cub, each keystroke seems to result in 1% change. What really is throwing me for a loop is that if you restart the app., it still seems to trim each plane nose down before you even take off.
 

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Reply #9 - Mar 5th, 2004 at 3:59pm
EA_KATL   Ex Member

 
If you have all three of theses imput devices pluged in at the same time it might be causeing a problem.and i read a while back someone had a problem with the USB yoke and USB pedals but i dont remember to much on the problem.if it has a driver install then see if theres a newer driver for it.but i would either unplug the Logitech Wingman Attack2 or the USB yoke and USB pedals.and dont try to run the joystick and the yoke and pedals togeather at the same time.cant be for shure but more than likely thats what the problem is.
 
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Reply #10 - Mar 5th, 2004 at 6:56pm

paddlefoot64   Offline
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No, I use the yoke or the Wingman, but not plugged in at the same time.
Thanks,
Mike
 

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Reply #11 - Mar 5th, 2004 at 8:03pm

JBaymore   Offline
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I have a Logitech ff 3D extreme stick plugged in along with the CH yoke and pro pedals.... and things work fine as long as I take the power off the ff on the stick.

If I don't take the power off the stick is bouncing around from the ff signal and affecting the control of aircraft.

But otherwise it works OK all plugged in at the same time.

best,

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Reply #12 - Mar 5th, 2004 at 10:46pm
EA_KATL   Ex Member

 
I wasnt shure if all that pluged in would cause a problem or not.i was just trying to think of anything there that might be a trouble maker for you.but the only thing that i can think of that would make the trim manually move is if the auto pilot is switched on.you can check that out.and if thats not the problem then i would go ahead and contact microsoft and see if they can help.as i have run out of ideas as to what it might be.
« Last Edit: Mar 6th, 2004 at 2:22am by N/A »  
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Reply #13 - Mar 6th, 2004 at 4:23am

nicecloud   Offline
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Hello Paddlefoot,

As you can see from the above, trim is a problem...
I understand what you mean.
I also go to windows settings/configuration panel/click on keyboard/propeties and adjust the repeat of the cursor there. Try it and after reading all of the above, you should enjoy trimming smoothly.
I translated the terms from french. I bet your cursor has the repeat repeating too fast...adjust it in windows also.

good luck

 
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Reply #14 - Mar 6th, 2004 at 6:59pm

MattNW   Offline
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In a real airplane the trim is used mainly to take pressure off the controls. It's seldom possible to fly hands free unless the air is completely calm which I've not seen much. Once you reach cruising altitude you put the plane nose level and then adjust the trim so that you don't have to either push or pull on the yoke to maintain level flight. You'll still have to make slight adjustments though. Gusting winds and thermals will always be moving the plane around some. It's just like in a car. Not often can you just turn loose of the wheel for a long time. You are always making small adjustments for things like wind and bumps in the road.

Technically once you set the trim, if you maintain the same speed and aircraft configuration (flaps, gear etc.) you should be able to deflect the nose either up or down and the plane should return to the level flight within a certain number of oscillations. This is determined in the testing phase of the airplane design and reflects the aircraft's stability. A plane that only oscillates a time or two and returns to stable level flight is considered more stable than one that takes more time to reach level flight once again.

In the flight sim world this is a lot harder to attain. Programming constraints limit the effectiveness of the trim control. In a real plane the trim is limitless, meanin that it's not controlled by notches but can be set infinitely fine until real level flight is achieved. In a program however you can't do this. You have a numeric value which controls the trim position. Sometimes a notch nose up is up too much and a notch down is too much down trim.

I've found that the trim in all the MS flight sims is a lot harder to dial in exactly like you can in a real airplane. It's just the nature of the digital medium we are flying through. You can however adust your sensitivity some. This will help but not cure the trim problem in the sim. You just need to find a point where you reach the medium that feels comfortable. Too much sensitivity and the trim becomes too coarse too little and you spend half the flight trying to dial it in.

Either way I doubt you'll always be able to fly the plane hands free. It doesn't work that way in the real world and it doesn't work well in the sim. For that I'd suggest using the auto pilot. You should however be able to find a trim that may leave some to be desired but works well enough.
 

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Reply #15 - Mar 6th, 2004 at 7:36pm

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I started using the trim with my keyboard (don't ask me why), but quickly changed to the trim on my MS Sidwinder P2, because it is a thousand times more effective than the board. Smiley
 

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Reply #16 - Mar 8th, 2004 at 3:05pm

nicecloud   Offline
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Hello, Paddlefoot,
We still do not know if you are trimmed ok now...
As you can see, a lot of help from your interesting post, even professional. But you have an unanswered question.
I made some tests, and checked my trims. 
The answer to your question relating on keyboard trimming is to adjust the delay repeat slider to the left in the keyboard settings.
Go to Start/Settings/Keyboard/Speed/...and adjust to your liking.
To my amazement, many people do not bother to make this adjustment, but I find it essential. Most of the real aircrafts do not have the trims on the stick, so it makes sense to use the keys on the keyboard for this function, like you do.
Please try it and let us know.
I use a microsoft sidewinder precision 2 and have the repeat slider in settings/ assignemnts set at 50% for elevator up and down trim.
Another good training tip is to watch the plane from outside view, like radio controlled. You have to display the numbers by pressing shift/z, and enjoy something we cannot do in the real world.
I am now going to check the tutorials in FS9. They were quite good in FS2002.
Have a good trim    Beaunuage/Nicecloud

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Reply #17 - Mar 10th, 2004 at 6:28am

paddlefoot64   Offline
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Thanks, Nicecloud, I will try the keyboard settings. I have reinstalled FS9 to see if changes I made previously have caused this problem. I don't believe it has always acted this way. When I first loaded it, several planes could be flown at cruise with just altering trim, and could be left flying by themselves for 15 minutes or so and did not gain/lose much altitude. What really perplexes me is the fact that trim has to be altered on the runway before some planes will even take off. Before takeoff it's hard to determine the trim adjustment except for the Cub which tells you a number for trim settings.
Thanks,
Mike
 

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Reply #18 - Mar 10th, 2004 at 4:57pm

nicecloud   Offline
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Ok, I think I'll also have to reinstall fs9. My FS9 is out of trim. There is a strange bug it seems...
Did you fly the lessons? they are  incredible. Imagine if we had this in the seventies. No one would have believed this.
I could anyway try the default flight of FS9 in seattle. It took off like the real thing, flaps 10, without changing the trim. One thing I must say is that the planes I fly, incidentally this Skylane also, have a new airfile. That is why they fly so well.
My 737 also has the airfile altered.
However I think the default cessna is doing rather good. You can also reduce the fuel load.
Regarding your question. Yes a plane is trimmed for take off, usually slightly up because we are going into climb and the speed is lower than cruise. When you push to level, the speed increases, hence the trim has to be readjusted down.
I still remember my checklist flying gliders In 1971.
Airbrakes closed/cockpit closed/Altimeter set 0/ Trim forward/Seatbelt closed.
In this case, the trim was set forward because the glider being towed was going to match the speed of the towing plane. This speed being too fast, if you hadn't trimmed down the glider, you soon found yourself coldsweating pushing the stick into the instrument panel and jigsawing like hell up and down behind the towing plane. Once free, you had to bring the trim in it's normal position.
I enjoy myself very much. FS9 is great, let's trim

nicecloud
 
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Reply #19 - Mar 12th, 2004 at 7:14am

paddlefoot64   Offline
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Yes, I have taken some lessons in FS9. I failed my solo because I spent the whole time fighting with the trim. Couldn't maintain 1500 ft. altitude because she kept climbing. I will have to re-try it now. My yoke does a little bit better job in trimming, but sometimes you run out of nose up trim and have to use keyboard to adjust.
 

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Reply #20 - Mar 12th, 2004 at 8:10am

nicecloud   Offline
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Hello paddlefoot,

You should normally be able to fly hands off or with only some slight input. By that I mean pressure, not even a milimeter? just a slight gentle pressure will do.
Another tip : I have my hand resting on the base of the stick or table. This gives me precision control. My forearm doesn't move, only my fingers holding the stick and it's only a push or holding pressure. The other hand is on the throttle in the same manner, always anticipating what I expect the plane will do. If I feel I have to pressure down or up. I trim or adjust throttle.
Keep trying, it makes me nervous. Wish I could show you.
Is it possible you send me your config file. I could check it out if you are ok. I'm just thinking about this. Remember to read the good advices given by other members on trimming.
One more thing :
Look at your vertical speed indicator and try to adjust your flight. Pwer/elevator so that the needle indicates O.
The first thing an aerobatic pilot will do is check for straight level flight, straight inverted flight, straight vertical flight before attempting any maneuver.
Get a friend who is a pilot if you have, or go and hire a cessna for one hour with an instructor. It will be unvaluable, much more than spend money on too many sceneries going obsolete anyway soon...

Nicecloud
 
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Reply #21 - Mar 12th, 2004 at 4:08pm

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  another suggestion is that a lot of aircraft have specs as to what cruise speed is and once airborne and at desired altitude reduce air speed and then trim out.
This is what you do in the real world. Or you set auto throttle to hold a speed . If you are using real world weather you might want to try pressing ctrl z twice to check the wind speed and direction as this can cause a plane to bounce alot when the wind changes from a head wind to a tail wind or a strong cross wind.
 
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Reply #22 - Mar 12th, 2004 at 5:26pm

paddlefoot64   Offline
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Re-install did not help. Any plane still requires trim nose up
considerably to even take off. When you start up FS9 or switch planes, shouldn't trim be set to sort of a neutral position? There seems to be very little null between nose up and nose down. Maybe the Wingman Attack 2 has a problem? The CH
yoke seems to do better.
Thanks for all the advice guys,
Mike
 

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Reply #23 - Mar 15th, 2004 at 8:45am

nicecloud   Offline
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Hello Paddlefoot,

You mentioned previously the cub, so let's fly the cub. Interestingly the airfile of the cub is a good one. I think it was made by somebody famous for airfiles. I forgot the name, but surely, that is why it flies so well.
For simplicity, I use autorudder. so we can concentrate on this trim issue.
Let's go to MKJS/Montego Bay/ Jamaica/ Runway 07
Press shift/enter once for better visibility.
Save the flight : Paddlefoot/no trim problems.
Release brakes/ slowly advance throttle while holding slight pressure back on the stick, there we go. I hold slight pressure back and very slowly release the pressure on the stick while climbing away to increase speed to 80. By that time the plane will climb on its own and you will have felt that you could release the pressure on the stick.
Above the golf course, I turn left to the boat on the horizon. Let's go there.
At 1000 feet, Push to level and experiment with throttle and speed, keeping the same altitude. I have to trim up to keep 70 with reduced throttle. We can slow and descend to say hello to the waving prople on the boat, regain altitude and back to Sangster.
This flight is good because I have an horizon in front of me for reference in the turns. It's simple. This is my default flight for testing any small plane. Later I suggest downloading  the free cessna from www.realairsimulations.com which is very realistic in flight, hence the flight dynamics are done by  experts Practice is the key here. I enjoyed the flight. Hope you will. The cub has a nice sound.
With the specs you have, the area overland sangster should be amazing. With a fast plane, cross the island to Kingston. If trim problems, jigsawing, the answer should be in all the feeedback you had.
Hope you enjoy like I did
Nicecloud
« Last Edit: Mar 15th, 2004 at 2:53pm by nicecloud »  
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