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Suggested Readings (Read 227 times)
Feb 13
th
, 2004 at 11:53pm
Scorpiоn
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Take it easy!
The Alamo
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One of my few posts that
isn't
a question...
I invite an argument to my statement, but I'm pretty sure the reality of war, even in things like the Battle of Britain, were skirmishes rather than great confrontations. Or else, the war would be over in three battles. Reading
modern
history confirms this, as even during the Battle of Britain, a catastrophic day would involve 10 aircraft being shot down.
However, I was actually awestruck while reading about the Battle of Kursk. I heard the Soviets lost over 1 million pieces of armour! That's infathomable! My book states that on July 5
th
, 1943, Soviet pilots claimed 173 victories! In return, the Luftwaffe claimed 432 aircraft shot down!! Luftwaffe losses were 26. Count 'em, 26! A battle of truly epic proportions.
Some of the most hard hitting lines in the chapter:
Quote:
The events of 5 July, 1943 comprised the single greatest day of combat in terms of aircraft claimed shot down;
it would never be matched
-- even by the oft-recorded Marianas 'Turkey Shoot'.
An absolutely fascinating read!
The Devil's Advocate.
&&
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Reply #1 -
Feb 14
th
, 2004 at 12:12am
WebbPA
Ex Member
I Like Flight Simulation!
I'll look into it but I suggest that each side grossly overestimated the losses of the other side. If you were to to check the losses which each side admitted I think you would find they were about 10% of what the other side estimated.
This gives me a chance to pass on another piece of gory war trivia - on what date in history did the most American military die? (Hint - it wasn't 6/6/44)
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Reply #2 -
Feb 14
th
, 2004 at 12:29am
Felix/FFDS
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http://www.brooksart.com/BoBloss.html
Claims vs actuals. One has to be carefuly when reading about "claims"
The link I state above indicates a daily tally of losses during the BoB. Sept 27 1940 shows a LW/RAF split of 55/26 losses, on that day alone.
Losses of German tanks totalled approx. 300 tanks, with Soviet estimates at a similar number.
While the numbers were considerable, I seruiously doubt that there were 1M pieces of armour, total, among the combatants.
I'd have to do more serious research on the subject, though.
Felix/
FFDS
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Reply #3 -
Feb 14
th
, 2004 at 3:58am
Hagar
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My Spitfire Girl
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Posts: 33159
Quote:
I heard the Soviets lost over 1 million pieces of armour! That's infathomable!
Not sure what book you're reading there Scorp. I can't guarantee their accuracy but these figures seem more realistic to me.
Quote:
Armour and troop concentrations were also built up by both sides with the Russians amassing 1,300,000 men, 3,600 tanks, 20,000 artillery pieces and 2,400 aircraft. The Germans also assembled a formidable fighting force which was slightly smaller with 900,000 men 2,700 tanks 2,000 aircraft. As well as the three premier Waffen SS divisions taking part.
Quote:
The total number of losses for the whole offensive were put at 100,000 men killed or wounded. The Soviet casualty figures were not released until the end of the communist regime in the USSR and were recorded at 250,000 killed and 600,000 wounded. They also lost 50% of their tank strength.
http://zhukov.mitsi.com/Kursk.htm
I suppose the BoB might be called a skirmish by comparison to that dreadful slaughter on the Eastern Front. These are the official figures for daylight operations on Sept 15th 1940, now regarded as the turning point of the battle. Note that pilot claims on both sides were usually much higher, often exaggerated by up to 400%.
Quote:
Enemy action by day
The enemy delivered two major attacks on London during the day. Later smaller formations attacked both Portland and targets in the Southampton area.
Our fighters destroyed 176 enemy aircraft (124 bombers and 53 fighters) plus 41 probable and 72 damaged.
AA destroyed 7 enemy aircraft plus 4 probable.
Our casualties are 25 aircraft and 13 pilots killed or missing.
http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/september15.html
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Reply #4 -
Feb 14
th
, 2004 at 12:20pm
Felix/FFDS
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Quote:
This gives me a chance to pass on another piece of gory war trivia - on what date in history did the most American military die? (Hint - it wasn't 6/6/44)
I'd have to venture that it was one of the bloody US Civil War battles - not Gettysburg, though.
Felix/
FFDS
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Reply #5 -
Feb 15
th
, 2004 at 12:02am
Scorpiоn
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Take it easy!
The Alamo
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Well, it had dawned on me that the claimes were a "bit" more exagerated than usual with 173 Soviet claims, vs. 26 actual German losses. But nonetheless quite impressive. For that level of claims to take place, there has to be a lot of skirmishing taking place in the sky. Awesome, even if no one gets shot down!
Duel for the Sky
deals only with air power, and my million knowledge comes from le brain, not the book. Although I find your facts much more probable, Hagar. Perhaps the USSR lost 1 million armour peices throughout the whole war? I'll look into it.
My book also covers the BoB, and it states the RAF had a tendency to exxagerate claims much more than the Luftwaffe, whom had much more accurate claims. In the RAF's defence however, 109s (and perhaps others?) did dive to escape danger, giving RAF pilots the impression they were crashing.
The Devil's Advocate.
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Reply #6 -
Feb 15
th
, 2004 at 12:11am
Felix/FFDS
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Quote:
My book also covers the BoB, and it states the RAF had a tendency to exxagerate claims much more than the Luftwaffe, whom had much more accurate claims. In the RAF's defence however, 109s (and perhaps others?) did dive to escape danger, giving RAF pilots the impression they were crashing.
Also - not all German fighter losses in BoB combat operations were due to RAF action. The 109E, like the Spit and Hurricane, had " short legs". Basically, they only had a few minutes worth of combat flight time available if they didn't want to run out of gas on the way back. Quite a number barely made it back to France.
Felix/
FFDS
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Reply #7 -
Feb 15
th
, 2004 at 6:04am
Hagar
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My Spitfire Girl
Costa Geriatrica
Posts: 33159
Quote:
My book also covers the BoB, and it states the RAF had a tendency to exxagerate claims much more than the Luftwaffe, whom had much more accurate claims. In the RAF's defence however, 109s (and perhaps others?) did dive to escape danger, giving RAF pilots the impression they were crashing.
Relying on one book is not the best way to get at the truth. If you want the full facts I think you need to read as much as possible on the subject. Much will depend on the information available at the time the book was written & first published. Also, not all "historians" are completely unbiased in their accounts of events. I've been interested in WWII & the BoB in particular since I was about 10 years old. 50 years later I've read everything I can find on the subject from both sides. I'm still reading & still learning.
These seem to be the generally agreed figures although by no means definite. There were no specific dates for the start or end of the BoB & opinions vary.
Quote:
The RAF claimed to have shot down 2,698 German aircraft, although post-war research has reduced this figure to 1,733.
The Luftwaffe claimed to have shot down 3,058 RAF aircraft, but subsequent analysis has reduced this to 915.
This contradicts your author's statement: "the RAF had a tendency to exxagerate claims much more than the Luftwaffe, whom had much more accurate claims." If you haven't misquoted him so far this leads me to question the validity of the book as a serious historical work.
I've also read that the two sides had different methods for reporting claims. The RAF had intelligence officers attached to each squadron to debrief crews as they returned from a sortie. The rules were quite straightforward. For a kill to be accepted it had to be confirmed by another pilot or someone on the ground. If nobody had seen it, "Hard luck old boy, I'll put it down as a Possible". (I've heard more than one RAF BoB veteran say that they disliked the system of personal claims. They thought that this encouraged unnecessary competition & thoughts of personal glory when any success should have been regarded as a squadron effort.)
I believe the Luftwaffe had no such system & relied on the pilot's own account. As Felix points out they were also fighting over enemy territory & unable to confirm claims from wreckage or reports from observers on the ground. The Allied pilots had faced exactly the same situation in WWI.
Exaggerated claims are to be expected in this type of combat as the pilots were not encouraged to follow their victim down in order to see it crash. This means that it's common for several pilots to claim for destroying the same aircraft.
The RAF also released the figures to the press as soon as possible to boost public morale. This meant that they were not checked as thoroughly as they might have been. Official figures would have been trusted & possibly exaggerated further by the press although there is no evidence to support this. They would have been forgotten & consigned to history as all attention would be on the events of the moment. These were desperate times & invasion was believed imminent, even by the British government.
PS. Separating fact from propaganda or legend is difficult. Many earlier accounts of WWII events were based on what was known at the time. Much of this was pure propaganda. Some people who were there still believe what they were told & report it as fact. Much of the truth was top secret & not declassified until comparatively recently. Some WWII documentation is still classified. The Hollywood habit of rewriting history to suit its audience does not help & just goes to propagate the myth or create new ones.
PPS. This article by an official RCAF historian shows the difficulty of arriving at the truth even with unrestricted access to official documents.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/jimlynch/bharis83.htm
One thing he does not mention is that many "Canadians" fighting in the British services at that time were in fact US citizens. This was long before the US entered the conflict.
«
Last Edit: Feb 15
th
, 2004 at 10:20am by Hagar
»
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Reply #8 -
Feb 15
th
, 2004 at 1:17pm
Scorpiоn
Offline
Colonel
Take it easy!
The Alamo
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Posts: 4496
This isn't the only book I have, but it is the most complete. Most of my oter books concentrate on machines rather than battles. And of course, the great factor here is... money. My mother previously said I could get a book a month, which is pretty good, but now that my dad is out of a job, she seems to have come down with amnesia.
The Devil's Advocate.
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Reply #9 -
Feb 15
th
, 2004 at 1:33pm
Hagar
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My Spitfire Girl
Costa Geriatrica
Posts: 33159
You don't need to rely on books. There are many articles on the WWW you can find with a quick search on Google. I use the RAF official BoB site to verify my own information.
http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/bobhome.html
Remember that the daily reports are the official records of the time, not the revised figures. There are also excellent documentaries shown on TV but these are not always historically correct. I can't recommend a definitive history as many of them contain inaccuracies. Len Deighton's "Fighter" is one of the better ones but even this has been criticised in some quarters.
In the end you have to read as much as you can on the subject & draw your own conclusions.
PS. I read several reviews on Duel for the Sky. One complaint was that "lack of space prevented the inclusion of a bibliography, which is too bad given that he appears to have done a great deal of research." Not knowing his sources makes the "facts" he based it on dubious to say the least. IMHO
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Reply #10 -
Feb 15
th
, 2004 at 3:06pm
WebbPA
Ex Member
I Like Flight Simulation!
Quote:
I'd have to venture that it was one of the bloody US Civil War battles - not Gettysburg, though.
You were partly right - it was at Gettysburg. About 25,000 if I recall.
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Reply #11 -
Feb 15
th
, 2004 at 4:05pm
Felix/FFDS
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Orlando, FL
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Quote:
You were partly right - it was at Gettysburg. About 25,000 if I recall.
I was thinking Manassas or something like that, but the Gettysburg battle was worse:
"Gettysburg
Other Names: None
Location: Adams County
Campaign: Gettysburg Campaign (June-August 1863)
Date(s): July 1-3, 1863
Principal Commanders: Maj. Gen. George G. Meade [US]; Gen. Robert E. Lee [CS]
Forces Engaged: 158,300 total (US 83,289; CS 75,054)
Estimated Casualties:
51,000
total (US 23,000; CS 28,000) "
Note that "casualties" would include wounded, but still...
Felix/
FFDS
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