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Yippee! The RAF gets NEW planes... (Read 1059 times)
Jan 26th, 2004 at 8:08am

C   Offline
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What good news, the EADS consortium has won the contract for the tanker aircraft for the Royal Air Force. At last we'll get some new tanker aircraft (Airbus A330s), rather than the second hand Boeings we were being offered from our friends at Boeing and BAE Systems. Smiley

Here's the BBC link...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3429111.stm

Charlie
 
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Reply #1 - Jan 26th, 2004 at 10:23am

HawkerTempest5   Offline
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Well, that's good news but I will be sad to see the wounderful old VC-10 go.
 

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Reply #2 - Jan 26th, 2004 at 12:30pm

Mr. Bones   Offline
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of course the RAF buys those A330's...why the hell would they go for the new 767 tanker (Europe supports Europe)...EADS all the way!

Wink
 

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Reply #3 - Jan 26th, 2004 at 12:47pm

Craig.   Offline
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meh should have waited for the 7E7 to see what it can do. The A330 is starting to get old, and since the MOD cant afford this anyway.
Side note that huge £3 billion loss, wasnt the entire costs. According to my dad it could run upwards of £10 billion, by the time they finish with the numbers.
 
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Reply #4 - Jan 26th, 2004 at 12:52pm

Hagar   Offline
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Quote:
meh should have waited for the 7E7 to see what it can do. The A330 is starting to get old, and since the MOD cant afford this anyway.

You don't need a brand new unproven (& expensive) aircraft for a tanker. I would think the A330 would be ideal. I agree with Bones that the RAF should use European manufactured aircraft where possible,.
 

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Reply #5 - Jan 26th, 2004 at 1:36pm

Craig.   Offline
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Quote:
I agree with Bones that the RAF should use European manufactured aircraft where possible,.

Personally i feel that, the most suited aircraft for the job should be used, no matter its point of origin. Thats why they are still struggling to replace the navy's lynx, nothing else either in production or in the planning stages meets the criteria for the job. Although two most likely candidates are still either a new lynx or the blackhawk or seahawk as i believe its known. like most government funded projects, the MOD is now on a huge cost cutting venture, and i gaurentee that this european deal offered some shall we say under the table benifits remember this is airbus.
 
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Reply #6 - Jan 26th, 2004 at 1:40pm

C   Offline
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Quote:
of course the RAF buys those A330's...why the hell would they go for the new 767 tanker (Europe supports Europe)...EADS all the way!

Wink


The 767's weren't even going to be new... Ex BA I believe...

Charlie
 
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Reply #7 - Jan 26th, 2004 at 1:43pm

C   Offline
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Quote:
meh should have waited for the 7E7 to see what it can do.


The VC10s would've been scrapped by then... Smiley

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Reply #8 - Jan 26th, 2004 at 1:47pm

Hagar   Offline
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Quote:
Personally i feel that, the most suited aircraft for the job should be used, no matter its point of origin. Thats why they are still struggling to replace the navy's lynx, nothing else either in production or in the planning stages meets the criteria for the job. Although two most likely candidates are still either a new lynx or the blackhawk or seahawk as i believe its known. like most government funded projects, the MOD is now on a huge cost cutting venture, and i gaurentee that this european deal offered some shall we say under the table benifits remember this is airbus.

Craig. I realise you don't like Airbus & as your Dad works or is involved with MoD work you might have inside knowledge that I'm not privy to. You shouldn't need me to tell you that BAe doesn't have a good track record over the last few years. Almost everything they've been involved in for the MoD has either been a complete failure or gone way over budget before being scrapped. This has cost the taxpayer of this country countless millions of wasted pounds & there have been some suggestions of fraud.

This deal sounds promising to me & I suggest that Airbus can hardly do worse whatever you might think of them. It's at least worth a try & keeps some jobs in this country.
 

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Reply #9 - Jan 26th, 2004 at 1:52pm

Craig.   Offline
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personal feelings about airbus aside, IF the A330 is the right fit for this area then sure its a good thing a great thing even, yes it keeps jobs here which is never a bad thing. If this deal was made to cut costs only without looking into all the options, once again the taxpayer will no pun intended Pay. only time will tell if the MOD got it right, lets hope they did as they sign my dads pay cheque and without that theres no roof over my head Grin
 
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Reply #10 - Jan 26th, 2004 at 2:02pm

Hagar   Offline
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Quote:
But like you pointed out, the MOD is useless

You're putting words in my mouth. The MoD is a government department & has been taken advantage of for years. Any contract for the government usually ends up with various companies & their directors lining their pockets by cheating the government & therefore the taypayer. This is fraud on a large scale by any other name. BAe is one of the worst culprits. It seems they have finally been rumbled &, I for one, am delighted. Wink
 

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Reply #11 - Jan 26th, 2004 at 2:09pm

Craig.   Offline
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i appologise for the mistake and will make sure to change that statement:)
 
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Reply #12 - Jan 26th, 2004 at 3:40pm

Mr. Bones   Offline
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we can discuss this (767 or A330) but the preference will always go out to a plane built in Europe (for the RAF)...that's just the way it is! the USAF doesn't use the VC-10 either...and in the future it will buy the 767 instead of the A330.

of course the tanking stuff is still new for EADS. Boeing has much more experience with it (eg the KC-135 series)...

personally i like the flying banana (for those who were at Fairford last summer)  Wink
 

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Reply #13 - Jan 26th, 2004 at 4:00pm

SilverFox441   Offline
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Good choice for the RAF.

Canada has also gone the Airbus route for our tankers, some of our CC-150 Polaris (Airbus A310) strategic airlift planes will be dual-roled.

Much noise was made about the "Boeing tanker supremacy", but it's mostly spurious. We're talking about probe-and-drogue refueling, not flying boom. Boeing actually got into the probe-and-drogue business after many of it's competitors.
 

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Reply #14 - Jan 27th, 2004 at 6:03am

C   Offline
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Quote:
...The MoD is a government department & has been taken advantage of for years. Any contract for the government usually ends up with various companies & their directors lining their pockets by cheating the government & therefore the taypayer...


And isn't it strange how whenever there seems to be a court case involving/against the MoD, a certain Ms Cherie Booth (Mrs Cherie Blair to those of you unfamiliar with British politics, or according to Jeremy Clarkson, the "Frog") is always willing to take it on...

Charlie
 
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Reply #15 - Jan 27th, 2004 at 11:01am

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Quote:
the USAF doesn't use the VC-10 either... 

The US Navy and Marine Corps often use VC-10 and TriStar tankers Wink
 

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Reply #16 - Jan 27th, 2004 at 11:36am

C   Offline
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Quote:
...of course the tanking stuff is still new for EADS. Boeing has much more experience with it (eg the KC-135 series)...


EADS are very lucky in that part of their consortium is Cobham Plc, and therein Flight Refuelling Ltd, the "Daddies", so to speak, of air-to-air refuelling, back in the early days, and Sargent-Fletcher, who provide many of the US militarys refuelling needs already...

Charlie
 
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Reply #17 - Jan 27th, 2004 at 11:58am

Mr. Bones   Offline
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Quote:
The US Navy and Marine Corps often use VC-10 and TriStar tankers Wink

yes, but the USN isn't the USAF!  Wink
 

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Reply #18 - Jan 27th, 2004 at 12:23pm

SilverFox441   Offline
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The RAF isn't the USAF either.  Shocked

Most inflight refueling is done the probe-drogue way, everybody else got it right, only USAF uses that silly boom. Smiley
 

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Reply #19 - Jan 27th, 2004 at 1:09pm

Hagar   Offline
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I copied this from Hansard dated 23 Oct 2003 . Hansard is an edited verbatim report of proceedings in the Chamber, in Westminster Hall and in Standing Committees (in the House of Commons).

Quote:
Why choose the Airbus option over the Boeing competition? The A330 can carry 50 per cent. more fuel than alternative aircraft, without the need for auxiliary fuel tanks. That means that it can deploy more aircraft further, to frequent destinations such as Bahrain and Canada. Twice as many fighters can be carried by one A330 aircraft. Equally important, it can remain on station longer and refuel more aircraft in operation. The 330 can carry passengers and cargo without the aircraft having to be reconfigured, as the Boeing would have to be. Those are all major advantages in taking the AirTanker option.

Quote:
Airbus is the only aircraft manufacturer with current experience of refuelling pod integration, and Cobham's Flight Refuelling Ltd., which works exclusively with AirTanker and Airbus, is the only company in the world with experience of providing refuelling pods and fuselage refuelling units. Airbus is currently converting A310s into tanker aircraft for the German and Canadian Governments, using the Cobham pods. As a modern aircraft, the A330 will cost less to operate over the 27-year life of the contract than the Boeing alternative.
 

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Reply #20 - Jan 27th, 2004 at 3:59pm

Tequila Sunrise   Offline
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Quote:
only USAF uses that silly boom


Actually, the Royal Netherlans AF uses a boom system due to requirments imposed by its F-16 force. The boom system is also easier for the crews of both aircraft to use.
 

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Reply #21 - Jan 28th, 2004 at 12:27am

SilverFox441   Offline
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My bad...I forgot about the KDC-10's. Sad

They'll probably go when the Dutch select their new fighter...most of the competitors use a probe.

Just thinking about it...don't the Suadis use KE-3's?
 

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Reply #22 - Jan 28th, 2004 at 6:13am

C   Offline
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Quote:
The boom system is also easier for the crews of both aircraft to use.


But also requires at least one extra crew member in the tanker, which in these days of letting as few people in an aeroplane as possible, is a downer.

It also has the problem of only refuelling one aeroplane at a time, unlike most hose and drogue tankers (the Tristar is an exception) which can do two...

Charlie
 
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Reply #23 - Jan 28th, 2004 at 8:45am

Hagar   Offline
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Quote:
It also has the problem of only refuelling one aeroplane at a time, unlike most hose and drogue tankers (the Tristar is an exception) which can do two...

Charlie

It used to be three. Your reference to Cobham PLC (& its subsidiary Flight Refuelling Ltd) made me wonder if anyone appreciates Sir Alan Cobham's considerable contribution to in-flight refuelling. I found this photo of 3 RAF Meteors being refuelled by a B-29 tanker using the probe & drogue system pioneered by Alan Cobham & his Flight Refuelling company based at Tarrant Rushton airfield in Dorset. The company had moved there from Ford, Sussex, in 1947. http://www.tarrant-rushton.ndirect.co.uk/index.html
...
This is exactly the same as the system in use today. It doesn't give any explanation as to why the B-29 is in USAF markings.

This photo of a Meteor F.8 on display at the Tangmere Museum shows the refuelling probe.
...
 

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Reply #24 - Jan 28th, 2004 at 9:53am

C   Offline
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Quote:
It used to be three.


So it did:). I think its a NATO AAR regulation which would now restrict it (Strangely enough, my final year University group project was to design an aeroplane to meet the requirements of the FSTA). I think its a problem with the middle a/c having nowhere to go if it goes pear shaped...

Quote:
Your reference to Cobham PLC (& its subsidiary Flight Refuelling Ltd) made me wonder if anyone appreciates Sir Alan Cobham's considerable contribution to in-flight refuelling...


I doubt very few people know about Cobham PLC or FRL/FRA... I doubt many people know about Sir Alan Cobham...

Quote:
This is exactly the same as the system in use today. It doesn't give any explanation as to why the B-29 is in USAF markings.


Shows how good the system is  Smiley. As for the B-29, what were the RAF using as tankers originally, as the earliest I know of is the Valiant...?

Charlie
 
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Reply #25 - Jan 28th, 2004 at 10:35am

Hagar   Offline
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Quote:
Shows how good the system is  Smiley. As for the B-29, what were the RAF using as tankers originally, as the earliest I know of is the Valiant...?

Charlie

If I ever knew it's now lost in the depths of my memory banks. ??? I shall endeavour to find out.
I seem to recall that Cobham's pre-WWII experiments involved a converted RAF Handley Page Harrow as the tanker with maybe the Gloster Gauntlet on the receiving end. FR owned & operated a number of Avro Lancastrians during the Berlin crisis. It's possible these were later used for tanker research.

The B-29 served with the RAF as the Washington. It's possible that some were converted as tankers or more likely a conversion kit was developed in case they were needed. This might explain the one in my photo. I don't think in-flight refuelling was used in anger during the 50s as the RAF was not involved in much long-range action. I remember that FR had to hastily convert RAF aircraft with probes during the Falklands conflict & also produced a number of conversion kits.
 

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Reply #26 - Jan 29th, 2004 at 6:41am

Mr. Bones   Offline
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silly boom? did you see the first refuelling flight with the X models of the JSF. Lockheed did it with a boom...went perfect! Boeing used the hose drogue system...the damn thing didn't want to connect (ok, fault of boeing) and the fuel went everywhere. but that same damn basket almost got sucked into the engine intake!  Undecided and that's not Boeing's fault. i think the boom is much safer. that's my opinion. i'm sure this reply will enter in a quote window bellow very soon, but you can't change my mind about this.  Wink
 

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