Search the archive:
Simviation Main Site
|
Site Search
|
Upload Images
Simviation Forum
›
Real World
›
Real Aviation
› Yippee! The RAF gets NEW planes...
(Moderators: Mitch., Fly2e, ozzy72, beaky, Clipper, JBaymore, Bob70, BigTruck)
‹
Previous Topic
|
Next Topic
›
Pages:
1
Yippee! The RAF gets NEW planes... (Read 1059 times)
Jan 26
th
, 2004 at 8:08am
C
Offline
Colonel
Earth
Posts: 13144
What good news, the EADS consortium has won the contract for the tanker aircraft for the Royal Air Force. At last we'll get some new tanker aircraft (Airbus A330s), rather than the second hand Boeings we were being offered from our friends at Boeing and BAE Systems.
Here's the BBC link...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3429111.stm
Charlie
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #1 -
Jan 26
th
, 2004 at 10:23am
HawkerTempest5
Offline
Colonel
Hawker Tempest MK V
United Kingdom
Gender:
Posts: 3149
Well, that's good news but I will be sad to see the wounderful old VC-10 go.
Flying Legends
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #2 -
Jan 26
th
, 2004 at 12:30pm
Mr. Bones
Offline
Colonel
Posts: 4304
of course the RAF buys those A330's...why the hell would they go for the new 767 tanker (Europe supports Europe)...EADS all the way!
Raw power...the J-58.&&
&&&&
My Anet collection.
&&
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #3 -
Jan 26
th
, 2004 at 12:47pm
Craig.
Offline
Colonel
Birmingham
Gender:
Posts: 18590
meh should have waited for the 7E7 to see what it can do. The A330 is starting to get old, and since the MOD cant afford this anyway.
Side note that huge £3 billion loss, wasnt the entire costs. According to my dad it could run upwards of £10 billion, by the time they finish with the numbers.
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #4 -
Jan 26
th
, 2004 at 12:52pm
Hagar
Offline
Colonel
My Spitfire Girl
Costa Geriatrica
Posts: 33159
Quote:
meh should have waited for the 7E7 to see what it can do. The A330 is starting to get old, and since the MOD cant afford this anyway.
You don't need a brand new unproven (& expensive) aircraft for a tanker. I would think the A330 would be ideal. I agree with Bones that the RAF should use European manufactured aircraft where possible,.
Founder & Sole Member - Grumpy's Over the Hill Club for Veteran Virtual Aviators
Member of the
Fox Four Group
Need help? Try
Grumpy's Lair
My photo gallery
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #5 -
Jan 26
th
, 2004 at 1:36pm
Craig.
Offline
Colonel
Birmingham
Gender:
Posts: 18590
Quote:
I agree with Bones that the RAF should use European manufactured aircraft where possible,.
Personally i feel that, the most suited aircraft for the job should be used, no matter its point of origin. Thats why they are still struggling to replace the navy's lynx, nothing else either in production or in the planning stages meets the criteria for the job. Although two most likely candidates are still either a new lynx or the blackhawk or seahawk as i believe its known. like most government funded projects, the MOD is now on a huge cost cutting venture, and i gaurentee that this european deal offered some shall we say under the table benifits remember this is airbus.
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #6 -
Jan 26
th
, 2004 at 1:40pm
C
Offline
Colonel
Earth
Posts: 13144
Quote:
of course the RAF buys those A330's...why the hell would they go for the new 767 tanker (Europe supports Europe)...EADS all the way!
The 767's weren't even going to be new... Ex BA I believe...
Charlie
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #7 -
Jan 26
th
, 2004 at 1:43pm
C
Offline
Colonel
Earth
Posts: 13144
Quote:
meh should have waited for the 7E7 to see what it can do.
The VC10s would've been scrapped by then...
Charlie
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #8 -
Jan 26
th
, 2004 at 1:47pm
Hagar
Offline
Colonel
My Spitfire Girl
Costa Geriatrica
Posts: 33159
Quote:
Personally i feel that, the most suited aircraft for the job should be used, no matter its point of origin. Thats why they are still struggling to replace the navy's lynx, nothing else either in production or in the planning stages meets the criteria for the job. Although two most likely candidates are still either a new lynx or the blackhawk or seahawk as i believe its known. like most government funded projects, the MOD is now on a huge cost cutting venture, and i gaurentee that this european deal offered some shall we say under the table benifits remember this is airbus.
Craig. I realise you don't like Airbus & as your Dad works or is involved with MoD work you might have inside knowledge that I'm not privy to. You shouldn't need me to tell you that BAe doesn't have a good track record over the last few years. Almost everything they've been involved in for the MoD has either been a complete failure or gone way over budget before being scrapped. This has cost the taxpayer of this country countless millions of wasted pounds & there have been some suggestions of fraud.
This deal sounds promising to me & I suggest that Airbus can hardly do worse whatever you might think of them. It's at least worth a try & keeps some jobs in this country.
Founder & Sole Member - Grumpy's Over the Hill Club for Veteran Virtual Aviators
Member of the
Fox Four Group
Need help? Try
Grumpy's Lair
My photo gallery
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #9 -
Jan 26
th
, 2004 at 1:52pm
Craig.
Offline
Colonel
Birmingham
Gender:
Posts: 18590
personal feelings about airbus aside, IF the A330 is the right fit for this area then sure its a good thing a great thing even, yes it keeps jobs here which is never a bad thing. If this deal was made to cut costs only without looking into all the options, once again the taxpayer will no pun intended Pay. only time will tell if the MOD got it right, lets hope they did as they sign my dads pay cheque and without that theres no roof over my head
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #10 -
Jan 26
th
, 2004 at 2:02pm
Hagar
Offline
Colonel
My Spitfire Girl
Costa Geriatrica
Posts: 33159
Quote:
But like you pointed out, the MOD is useless
You're putting words in my mouth. The MoD is a government department & has been taken advantage of for years. Any contract for the government usually ends up with various companies & their directors lining their pockets by cheating the government & therefore the taypayer. This is fraud on a large scale by any other name. BAe is one of the worst culprits. It seems they have finally been rumbled &, I for one, am delighted.
Founder & Sole Member - Grumpy's Over the Hill Club for Veteran Virtual Aviators
Member of the
Fox Four Group
Need help? Try
Grumpy's Lair
My photo gallery
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #11 -
Jan 26
th
, 2004 at 2:09pm
Craig.
Offline
Colonel
Birmingham
Gender:
Posts: 18590
i appologise for the mistake and will make sure to change that statement:)
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #12 -
Jan 26
th
, 2004 at 3:40pm
Mr. Bones
Offline
Colonel
Posts: 4304
we can discuss this (767 or A330) but the preference will always go out to a plane built in Europe (for the RAF)...that's just the way it is! the USAF doesn't use the VC-10 either...and in the future it will buy the 767 instead of the A330.
of course the tanking stuff is still new for EADS. Boeing has much more experience with it (eg the KC-135 series)...
personally i like the flying banana (for those who were at Fairford last summer)
Raw power...the J-58.&&
&&&&
My Anet collection.
&&
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #13 -
Jan 26
th
, 2004 at 4:00pm
SilverFox441
Offline
Colonel
Now What?
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Gender:
Posts: 1467
Good choice for the RAF.
Canada has also gone the Airbus route for our tankers, some of our CC-150
Polaris
(Airbus A310) strategic airlift planes will be dual-roled.
Much noise was made about the "Boeing tanker supremacy", but it's mostly spurious. We're talking about probe-and-drogue refueling, not flying boom. Boeing actually got into the probe-and-drogue business after many of it's competitors.
Steve
(Silver Fox)
Daly
&&
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #14 -
Jan 27
th
, 2004 at 6:03am
C
Offline
Colonel
Earth
Posts: 13144
Quote:
...The MoD is a government department & has been taken advantage of for years. Any contract for the government usually ends up with various companies & their directors lining their pockets by cheating the government & therefore the taypayer...
And isn't it strange how whenever there seems to be a court case involving/against the MoD, a certain Ms Cherie Booth (Mrs Cherie Blair to those of you unfamiliar with British politics, or according to Jeremy Clarkson, the "Frog") is always willing to take it on...
Charlie
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #15 -
Jan 27
th
, 2004 at 11:01am
HawkerTempest5
Offline
Colonel
Hawker Tempest MK V
United Kingdom
Gender:
Posts: 3149
Quote:
the USAF doesn't use the VC-10 either...
The US Navy and Marine Corps often use VC-10 and TriStar tankers
Flying Legends
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #16 -
Jan 27
th
, 2004 at 11:36am
C
Offline
Colonel
Earth
Posts: 13144
Quote:
...of course the tanking stuff is still new for EADS. Boeing has much more experience with it (eg the KC-135 series)...
EADS are very lucky in that part of their consortium is Cobham Plc, and therein Flight Refuelling Ltd, the "Daddies", so to speak, of air-to-air refuelling, back in the early days, and Sargent-Fletcher, who provide many of the US militarys refuelling needs already...
Charlie
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #17 -
Jan 27
th
, 2004 at 11:58am
Mr. Bones
Offline
Colonel
Posts: 4304
Quote:
The US Navy and Marine Corps often use VC-10 and TriStar tankers
yes, but the USN isn't the USAF!
Raw power...the J-58.&&
&&&&
My Anet collection.
&&
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #18 -
Jan 27
th
, 2004 at 12:23pm
SilverFox441
Offline
Colonel
Now What?
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Gender:
Posts: 1467
The RAF isn't the USAF either.
Most inflight refueling is done the probe-drogue way, everybody else got it right, only USAF uses that silly boom.
Steve
(Silver Fox)
Daly
&&
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #19 -
Jan 27
th
, 2004 at 1:09pm
Hagar
Offline
Colonel
My Spitfire Girl
Costa Geriatrica
Posts: 33159
I copied this from Hansard dated 23 Oct 2003 .
Hansard is an edited verbatim report of proceedings in the Chamber, in Westminster Hall and in Standing Committees (in the House of Commons).
Quote:
Why choose the Airbus option over the Boeing competition? The A330 can carry 50 per cent. more fuel than alternative aircraft, without the need for auxiliary fuel tanks. That means that it can deploy more aircraft further, to frequent destinations such as Bahrain and Canada. Twice as many fighters can be carried by one A330 aircraft. Equally important, it can remain on station longer and refuel more aircraft in operation. The 330 can carry passengers and cargo without the aircraft having to be reconfigured, as the Boeing would have to be. Those are all major advantages in taking the AirTanker option.
Quote:
Airbus is the only aircraft manufacturer with current experience of refuelling pod integration, and Cobham's Flight Refuelling Ltd., which works exclusively with AirTanker and Airbus, is the only company in the world with experience of providing refuelling pods and fuselage refuelling units. Airbus is currently converting A310s into tanker aircraft for the German and Canadian Governments, using the Cobham pods. As a modern aircraft, the A330 will cost less to operate over the 27-year life of the contract than the Boeing alternative.
Founder & Sole Member - Grumpy's Over the Hill Club for Veteran Virtual Aviators
Member of the
Fox Four Group
Need help? Try
Grumpy's Lair
My photo gallery
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #20 -
Jan 27
th
, 2004 at 3:59pm
Tequila Sunrise
Offline
Colonel
Nunquam non paratus
Glasgow Scotland
Gender:
Posts: 4149
Quote:
only USAF uses that silly boom
Actually, the Royal Netherlans AF uses a boom system due to requirments imposed by its F-16 force. The boom system is also easier for the crews of both aircraft to use.
If someone with multiple personality disorder threatens suicide, is it a hostage situation?
Thou shalt maintain thine airspeed lest the ground shalt rise up and smite thee
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #21 -
Jan 28
th
, 2004 at 12:27am
SilverFox441
Offline
Colonel
Now What?
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Gender:
Posts: 1467
My bad...I forgot about the KDC-10's.
They'll probably go when the Dutch select their new fighter...most of the competitors use a probe.
Just thinking about it...don't the Suadis use KE-3's?
Steve
(Silver Fox)
Daly
&&
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #22 -
Jan 28
th
, 2004 at 6:13am
C
Offline
Colonel
Earth
Posts: 13144
Quote:
The boom system is also easier for the crews of both aircraft to use.
But also requires at least one extra crew member in the tanker, which in these days of letting as few people in an aeroplane as possible, is a downer.
It also has the problem of only refuelling one aeroplane at a time, unlike most hose and drogue tankers (the Tristar is an exception) which can do two...
Charlie
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #23 -
Jan 28
th
, 2004 at 8:45am
Hagar
Offline
Colonel
My Spitfire Girl
Costa Geriatrica
Posts: 33159
Quote:
It also has the problem of only refuelling one aeroplane at a time, unlike most hose and drogue tankers (the Tristar is an exception) which can do two...
Charlie
It used to be three. Your reference to Cobham PLC (& its subsidiary Flight Refuelling Ltd) made me wonder if anyone appreciates Sir Alan Cobham's considerable contribution to in-flight refuelling. I found this photo of 3 RAF Meteors being refuelled by a B-29 tanker using the probe & drogue system pioneered by Alan Cobham & his Flight Refuelling company based at Tarrant Rushton airfield in Dorset. The company had moved there from Ford, Sussex, in 1947.
http://www.tarrant-rushton.ndirect.co.uk/index.html
This is exactly the same as the system in use today. It doesn't give any explanation as to why the B-29 is in USAF markings.
This photo of a Meteor F.8 on display at the Tangmere Museum shows the refuelling probe.
Founder & Sole Member - Grumpy's Over the Hill Club for Veteran Virtual Aviators
Member of the
Fox Four Group
Need help? Try
Grumpy's Lair
My photo gallery
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #24 -
Jan 28
th
, 2004 at 9:53am
C
Offline
Colonel
Earth
Posts: 13144
Quote:
It used to be three.
So it did:). I think its a NATO AAR regulation which would now restrict it (Strangely enough, my final year University group project was to design an aeroplane to meet the requirements of the FSTA). I think its a problem with the middle a/c having nowhere to go if it goes pear shaped...
Quote:
Your reference to Cobham PLC (& its subsidiary Flight Refuelling Ltd) made me wonder if anyone appreciates Sir Alan Cobham's considerable contribution to in-flight refuelling...
I doubt very few people know about Cobham PLC or FRL/FRA... I doubt many people know about Sir Alan Cobham...
Quote:
This is exactly the same as the system in use today. It doesn't give any explanation as to why the B-29 is in USAF markings.
Shows how good the system is
. As for the B-29, what were the RAF using as tankers originally, as the earliest I know of is the Valiant...?
Charlie
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #25 -
Jan 28
th
, 2004 at 10:35am
Hagar
Offline
Colonel
My Spitfire Girl
Costa Geriatrica
Posts: 33159
Quote:
Shows how good the system is
. As for the B-29, what were the RAF using as tankers originally, as the earliest I know of is the Valiant...?
Charlie
If I ever knew it's now lost in the depths of my memory banks. ??? I shall endeavour to find out.
I seem to recall that Cobham's pre-WWII experiments involved a converted RAF Handley Page Harrow as the tanker with maybe the Gloster Gauntlet on the receiving end. FR owned & operated a number of Avro Lancastrians during the Berlin crisis. It's possible these were later used for tanker research.
The B-29 served with the RAF as the Washington. It's possible that some were converted as tankers or more likely a conversion kit was developed in case they were needed. This might explain the one in my photo. I don't think in-flight refuelling was used in anger during the 50s as the RAF was not involved in much long-range action. I remember that FR had to hastily convert RAF aircraft with probes during the Falklands conflict & also produced a number of conversion kits.
Founder & Sole Member - Grumpy's Over the Hill Club for Veteran Virtual Aviators
Member of the
Fox Four Group
Need help? Try
Grumpy's Lair
My photo gallery
Back to top
IP Logged
Reply #26 -
Jan 29
th
, 2004 at 6:41am
Mr. Bones
Offline
Colonel
Posts: 4304
silly boom? did you see the first refuelling flight with the X models of the JSF. Lockheed did it with a boom...went perfect! Boeing used the hose drogue system...the damn thing didn't want to connect (ok, fault of boeing) and the fuel went everywhere. but that same damn basket almost got sucked into the engine intake!
and that's not Boeing's fault. i think the boom is much safer. that's my opinion. i'm sure this reply will enter in a quote window bellow very soon, but you can't change my mind about this.
Raw power...the J-58.&&
&&&&
My Anet collection.
&&
Back to top
IP Logged
Pages:
1
‹
Previous Topic
|
Next Topic
›
« Home
‹ Board
Top of this page
Forum Jump »
Home
» 10 most recent Posts
» 10 most recent Topics
Current Flight Simulator Series
- Flight Simulator X
- FS 2004 - A Century of Flight
- Adding Aircraft Traffic (AI) & Gates
- Flight School
- Flightgear
- MS Flight
Graphic Gallery
- Simviation Screenshots Showcase
- Screenshot Contest
- Edited Screenshots
- Photos & Cameras
- Payware Screenshot Showcase
- Studio V Screenshot Workshop
- Video
- The Cage
Design Forums
- Aircraft & 3D Design
- Scenery & Panel Design
- Aircraft Repainting
- Designer Feedback
General
- General Discussion
- Humour
- Music, Arts & Entertainment
- Sport
Computer Hardware & Software Forum
- Hardware
- Tweaking & Overclocking
- Computer Games & Software
- HomeBuild Cockpits
Addons Most Wanted
- Aircraft Wanted
- Other Add-ons Wanted
Real World
- Real Aviation ««
- Specific Aircraft Types
- Autos
- History
On-line Interactive Flying
- Virtual Airlines Events & Messages
- Multiplayer
Simviation Site
- Simviation News & Info
- Suggestions for these forums
- Site Questions & Feedback
- Site Problems & Broken Links
Combat Flight Simulators
- Combat Flight Simulator 3
- Combat Flight Simulator 2
- Combat Flight Simulator
- CFS Development
- IL-2 Sturmovik
Other Websites
- Your Site
- Other Sites
Payware
- Payware
Old Flight Simulator Series
- FS 2002
- FS 2000
- Flight Simulator 98
Simviation Forum
» Powered by
YaBB 2.5 AE
!
YaBB Forum Software
© 2000-2010. All Rights Reserved.