Hi to all;
Just found this forum, and this would be my first to post.

I'm a old(mabye not that old)former Navy fighter pilot from the Korean and Vietnam war dsays..  I'm in search for the best flight simulator that resembles that actual flying and combat that you get from piloting a Navy jet..
Is there such a products that I can purchase?
Any help here, would be appreciated

Welcome to Simviation Skeeterman,

For the Korean War, I would recommend CFS2 with the Fox Four campaigns installed.  For Vietnam, I'm really not sure.  Bobc1 advice sounds good though.

Hi Skeeterman,

Amazon has CFS2 for $14.99.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-5636065-4726512

If that link doesn't work just go to:

http://www.amazon.com/

and select "Video and Computer Games" and then type in "Combat Flight Simulator 2" without the quotation marks in the Search Box and you should find it.

Or buy it from your favorite/trusted online store or local retailer.

Now about joysticks. There are a bunch of them on the market at prices ranging from $10.00 to $300.00 and then modifying them upwards toward a $1,000.00!!!

I have what is considered the best joystick available. It's a Thrustmaster HOTAS Cougar and I love it. It's all metal and has two parts, the joystick and the throttle and it weighs a ton. You can learn everything about it at:

http://cougar.frugalsworld.com/

It costs $299.00 at Amazon right now. But it's a HOTAS that needs some/a lot of attention as it relates to maintenance. I've changed out the potentiometers on mine and upgraded them to the tune of $200.00. And I want to upgrade/modify the gimbals in the joystick which will run between $200.00 and $400.00!!! The phillips head screw driver and soldering iron is never very far from it!

So this joystick combo is only for those who have tried many others and just get hooked on the Cougar and don't mind screwing around inside it and feel that it's the best.

But coming in at a close second and what a lot of flight simmers use is the Saitek J24C X45 Flight Control System (USB) and it's only $79.00 at Amazon right now with free shipping.  It also has both the joystick and throttle combo. This is what a lot of flight simmers use.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005TOTG/qid=1070919378//ref=sr_...

Check it out at:

http://www.saitekusa.com/usa/prod/x45.htm

or their full line of joysticks at:

http://www.saitekusa.com/usa/prod/joysticks.htm

It really adds to the "immersion" factor if you have a throttle along with your joystick.

Now you asked about the twisting throttle that substitutes for a rudder. Hmmm, since you flew real jets in the Navy this might be kinda like cheating. But the Saitek J24C X45 Flight Control System (USB) has it included on the joystick. In most modern sims, (CFS2 and CFS3) they have an "Auto-Rudder" button that you can select which in essence allows you to fly without the need for real rudders or the twist rudders. But you can always buy a set of floor mounted rudder pedals and make it as real as it gets! The CH Pro Pedals USB are probably the best available.

They say:

"If it's realism you're after, step into our USB Pro Pedals. With differential toe brake support and a gas / brake function, these pedals can take you from the airfield right down to the racetrack. Don't forget to buckle up! "

But the rudder pedals are something that you can always add later on if you wish. These joysticks/throttle combos on their own can be a bit awnry to get set up right if you're new to this kind of thing. It might help to have a friend/son who is familiar with computers to help guide you through the initial setup.

The elevators are controlled/trimmed by buttons on your keyboard or buttons/sliders that you can program on your joystick if it has that option. The Saitek J24C X45 does.

Buying a joystick or joystick/throttle combo can be a very subjective thing. So if it's possible go to your local computer store/BestBuy or whatever store in your area has a large selection and personally try them out.

CH Products has a nice setup. I haven't priced it except at their website and for all 3 devices it's about $500.00.  You can/must buy the joystick, throttle and floor rudder pedals all in USB. I don't know if you need 3 open USB ports or if they just daisy chain into one another. If you shop around online you'll probably be able to save up to 20 or 30% perhaps.

http://www.chproducts.com/retail/usb_home.html

Please don't EVER buy a FFB or Force Feed Back joystick unless you've tried it first. What the hell were they thinking when........ hahaha. The theory behing FFB is good but the the practical use of it is strange to say the least.

I wouldn't bother downloading that Mig Alley demo that I wrote about earlier. I was just reading about it again and it probably won't work very well on Windows XP if that is what Operating System you're running. It's too old.

Just get CFS2 and download those free "Fox Four Campaigns"  for the Korean air combat that Canadian wrote about. Just click on where Canadian wrote "Fox Four Campaign" and that will take you right to the download website. Then when you feel like getting back into the Viet Nam era, buy the Vietnam Air War expansion pack that I wrote about and just add it on to CFS2.

PS. CFS4 hasn't been written/released yet. You must have meant CFS3.

PSS. How fast of a computer (CPU speed) do you have and how much RAM/memory? And what video card do you have installed? If you know.

Have a nice day.

Alienware Intel D850GB 400MHz FSB with a PowerLeaped P4_2.6GHz
512MBs PC-800 RDRAM
Radeon 9700 Pro 337/348
Seagate 120GB-8MB Cache HD
Audigy 2 Platinum
Klipsch Pro-Media 4.1
Sony 21" E540/B Monitor
HOTAS Cougar
WinXP_Pro w/SP-1
DirectX_9.0(b)
3DMark2003=5,198
3DMark2001 SE=14,233

Thanks to you, bobc1 and wwatkins for you excellent knowledge here.. I would have answered yesterday or last night, but my High Speed Internest service seems to be having major problems the past few days..

So to solve the matter in hand,, I will go with CFS2 and go to "Fox Four Campain" and download that item, and buy the Vietnam Air War pack as Bob reports.

As for the joystick situation,, I'm considering the HOTAS Cougar and the J24CX45 from Saitek, as you suggested  Bob.

Than I heard about the future item.. Falcon 4 Gold OIR..
Do you two have any information on the item?

I know these flight simulators software products will never replace the actual cockpit flying, but it may be fun just to play like old times.
Thanks again,

Hi Skeeterman,

As you can see by the differing opinions here that buying a joystick is a very subjective decision. That's why I highly recommend that you personally try them out if at all possible.

I once tried a MS Sidewinder Pro Force Feed Back and I couldn't stop laughing. The thing was vibrating and bouncing all over my desk! They have small servo motors in them that try to emulate the forces you experience in real life. Like the centrifugal force you experience when you round a curve in your car and you need to pull harder on the steering wheel to counteract it. So you find yourself "fighting" with the joystick in order to keep your virtual car or aircraft in line. This may be fun for a little while but if you play online against good fighter pilots you'll find yourself at a disadvantage because it's difficult to line up the reticule over your opponents aircraft because it keeps shaking and vibrating. And the force feedback is only as good as the programmer who wrote the forces into the flight simulator. I don't know what kind of shape you're in (hey, I'm getting older too ...48 and a heavy smoker *cough*) but it can get a bit tiring fighting a joystick all night long. Most of them have an On/Off switch for the servo motors .... I think... but then they become soft and mushy. Maybe someone else here can comment on their experience with FFB joysticks.

Which brings up another point about the TM HOTAS Cougar. It has 18lb. springs in it and can get your hand/wrist/arm tired and even sore after prolonged use especially when you first get it. My right hand/wrist/arm is now in good shape through repeated use but be forewarned. And if you're prone to any type of carpal tunnel syndrome also be forewarned. I got it once for a couple of months and I'm sure glad I got over it. I have a cousin who needed to have his surgically repaired and he still has pain in his wrist. I'm not sure if my carpal tunnel syndrome was caused by me using the mouse over and over again or the Cougar but man that's a painful syndrome. Deep down bone pain. OUCH!

There seems to be two camps out there in the modern combat flight simulator world. The lovers of Falcon 4 and the lovers of Flanker and now the newly released LO:MAC. They are both good simulators and really test your ability to learn a whole lotta avionics and weapons systems. I haven't counted them all yet but I believe that there are hundreds of different key combinations that you can use in LO:MAC to fly, view and fight it. I probably have a few dozen memorized by now but there is quite a steep learning curve on both sims. I hear that Falcon 4 is even more realistic than in LO:MAC in the avionics/weapons department.

Hopefully when/if Falcon 4 Gold OIR is released it won't have the number of patches that Falcon 4 needed. I think they are on SP4 now and depending on what version of Falcon 4 you buy will determine what patches you'll need to install. I think. These modern combat sims are very complex programs and need to be patched from time to time but it seems as though Falcon 4 really needed a lot of patching. I imagine LO:MAC will too. They are working on the first patch right now and the sim was only released a few weeks ago.

I don't think that there's a free demo for Falcon 4 that you can try... only a cheap ass movie....

http://www.fileplanet.com/files/130000/132837.shtml

but I highly recommend (again) that you try out the LO:MAC demo. It's 125MBs and you say you have broadband so downloading it won't be a problem. Hey, I think the demo is worth $39.00!!!!

http://www.lo-mac.com/

It will give ya a taste of the complexity of modern combat flight sims and also give you an idea of how they will run on your computer. You probably should have at least a P4_2.0GHz processor, 512MBs of RAM and a video card in the Ti_4200 or better neighborhood and you'll only be able to run it at medium detail levels. The minimum requirements stated on the box are somewhat inaccurate/misleading. Hey, they're trying to sell as many units as possible! Even the best consumer level computers on the market today (P4_3.06GHz, 1GB RAM and an ATI 9800XP Pro) now can't run it at the highest graphic levels.

Except for maybe this bad boy!!!

http://www.go-l.com/desktops/machl38/features/index.htm

Check out the cooling system. It will also keep a six pack chilled to 36*F for those late night LAN parties.

http://www.go-l.com/desktops/machl38/cooling/index.htm

And to run LO:MAC you need to have a DirectX 8.1 or newer compliant video card.

To check out the Falcon 4  
Falcon 4 Articles
Falcon 4 Forum
Falcon 4 Chat Room

Go to:

http://frugalsworld.com/

and scroll down a bit ... left hand side of page.

And to check out the LO:MAC forums (General is the busiest) go to the above LO:MAC link.

If you've never combat flight simmed before I think you'll really get a kick out of CFS2. The carrier landings are always fun. Don't forget about that tailhook.

Hey, forget about a simple joystick and throttle and perhaps rudder pedals. Get one of these instead!



Have a safe flight.

bobc1;

Grest reports you have given here... Man!  I would guess you know a great deal about this gaming thing.

I can say, the last time I had a "stick" in my hands was five years ago, flying a P51 Mustang that I was considering buying.. The person wanted $l,555.000..
And that would come under a "simulator stick" also.
In fact, I have never played a game on a computer, so it will be an experience to say the least..

I have some conern about what my PC requirement are for the CFS2.. So I logged on to.. www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/games/gameadvisor/
and find that I'm not 100% in the requirement stage..
Although, they say, I can play the flight simulator on my PC.

Here is the story on my PC.

AMD Athlon XP 2400+, 2GHz  with QuantiSpeed Processor
528MB PC2700 DDR SDRAM(2DIMM)  memory
120GB Ultra DMA 7200 rpm 2MB SDRAM  hard drive.
16X max. speed DVD-ROM and HP CD-Writer (48x max speed write/12x max speed re-write/48x max speed read) multimedia drive.
NVIDIA GeForce4 MXTM graphics with 64mb allocated video memory.
Integrated 5.1 Sound card.

So tell me what you think on this requirement matter?

Another Note here, why don't you write a book on all about gaming,,  or you may have already written that book.

I'm printing all your iinformation for future use.

Thanks again.

Hi Skeeterman,

I saw a show on the Discovey Wings channel a couple of nights ago about the P-51 Mustang. What a beautiful aircraft eh? It has such classic lines to it. I forget the name of the P-51 that this fellow was having refurbished ... something like "Buggin' Out" I recall. You'll probably know its name. It has a beautiful chrome and baby blue paint scheme on it. Then 4 owners of P-51s were getting together to learn how to formation fly. It was funny when one fellow said that he spent his whole aviation career trying to stay as far away as possible from other aircraft and that formation flying was forcing him to do just the opposite. It was taking him a little while to get adjusted to the idea.

I live about a mile from a private air ranch here in Florida and every once in awhile I'll see a formation of 3-4-5 vintage aircraft flying around. They appear to be Hellcats or maybe Wildcats doing most of the formation flying. I'm a little jealous of those guys ... I'm screwing around simming on a freakin' computer and they're up there doing the real deal. Every once in awhile this other fellow comes to town in a MiG-15. That's a screaming jet. I wonder what that costs just in terms of fuel to fly for an hour?

I just went to the MS Game Advisor link that you posted to check it out. I had no idea that MS had such a website. Under "Simulation" they only had a few listings. Not one for CFS2 though. You must have tested your computer for CFS3 and/or LO:MAC and these newer sims need a lot more power "under the hood" than does CFS2. Your computer specifications are WELL within the range for CFS2. And I would think for CFS3 and LO:MAC too. You won't be able to turn all the graphic details up in either of those sims but you should get acceptable framerates (FPS).

Our computers are similar in power except that I have a better video card than you. The weak link in your system or the "bottleneck" is in your video card. If you ever want to upgrade your computer consider putting in an ATI Radeon 9700 Pro. They're around $250.00 now. And since you were considering buy a $1,555,000.00 Mustang you might be able to afford the latest and greatest video card on the market now. It's the ATI RADEON 9800XT 256MB DVI/TV 8X AGP RETAIL. But they come dear at around $465.00!!!

You probably mean that you have 512MBs of RAM installed. That would be two 256MB DIMMS. And for CFS3 and LO:MAC another 256-512MBs of DDR PC2700 DDR SDRAM memory for a total of 768/1,024MBs would be the sweetspot. It appears as though you have an open DIMM slot. They'll run fine on 512MBs but you'll probably notice the sims accessing your hard drive every once in awhile ... which slows down gaming.

And you'll have a problem simming LO:MAC because it needs DirectX 8.1 or greater and your video card only supports DirectX 7.1. It may still work but you'll probably have problems with your graphics and perhaps with CTD (Crashing To Desktop) and the dreaded Blue Screen of Death (BSOD).

Your video card supports 3D API: DirectX®7.1 and OpenGL®1.3. But most if not all modern simulators use Direct3D, not OpenGL.

But for CFS2 you have plenty of power ... even a bit to spare if such a luxury exists.

I've been flight simming ever since I got my first computer. The sim was called "A-10 Attack" which had a sequel called "Cuba". A 25-35MHz Mac with a 250MB hard drive. That must have been 6-8 years ago. I remember getting online with AOL when they charged $2.99 an hour and at 14Kbs. What a rip-off. That's how Steve Case got so rich so fast. They were the only ISP around and could charge whatever the market would bear. Being online for just 2-3 hours a day would bring a hefty bill of around $250.00 a month. Oh, the humanity!

I'll attach a graph of some video card benchmarking (3DMark2001 SE) results so you'll have an idea of where your NVIDIA GeForce4 MXTM graphics card with 64mb allocated video memory ranks in the scheme of things. After you get some hours of combat flight simming under your belt and you decide that you enjoy it you may want upgrade your video card so you can turn the graphics up much higher get more details and smoother lines (Anti-Aliasing and Anisotropic Filtering enabled) and higher framerates which results in smoother flowing graphics.

I can't wait to hear your first impressions of CFS2. I think you'll get a kick out of it because the flight models really mimic the actual aircraft. And there are so many add-on aircraft (hundreds) for CFS2 that if you don't like the flight characteristics of one P-51 Mustang or other aircraft you just need to download another one and check it out. It'll take you a few days to configure CFS2 to your liking and to your computer's performance level and probably some time to get your joystick configured. Don't get discouraged if you find yourself having a little difficulty with whatever joystick you decide on. Programming them (especially the more expensive, feature-laden ones) can be a daunting task in the beginning if you're unfamiliar with them. It may be initiation by fire but we've all gone through it and survived so hang in there. I remember the first time I flew CFS2. I was confused and landing it seemed so difficult but after a few days it got real easy. Then I started upping the difficulty level and it was challenging once again. There are different levels of realism in CFS2. Easy, medium and hard and other variables that you can adjust. Like wind, thunderstorms, heavy rain, lightning etc.

Keep us informed.

Hi SabreHawk,

Sixty two years ago last Sunday those Japanese Zeroes showed the world what a surprise attack using air power could do to a moored snoozing naval fleet. Thank goodness the carriers were out to sea. And this coming Wednesday the 17th like you point out we'll be celebrating a century since the Wright brothers demonstrated sustained flight of a heavier-than-air machine under the complete control of the pilot.

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/today/dec17.html

Yeah, you're right about the commercials on the Discovery Wings channel. I don't mind most of them as long as they're related to flying or flight simming and they don't SCREAM at me. I have a total adversion to those loud commercials I'm forced to watch on most TV and especially cable channels. If I see and hear one more freakin' Ditech commercial I'll have to spend even more time on the Internet. Or better yet turn this electronic stuff off and get some fresh air. I hate Ditech.com and would NEVER buy anything from them (I surely wouldn't get a second mortgage from them) because they treat you like you're a complete moron and they run the same damn commercials over and over and over and over......... My clickin' finger gets a real workout trying to get away from those annoying money-grubbing parasites.

Thank you for letting me vent!

Last November 17th I got an email from Comcast saying that they "doubled" our Internet speed at no charge. So I went to:

http://www.dslreports.com

then "Our Tools" then "Speed Tests" and ran a few. You'll need MS' or Sun's Java program installed in order to run the test. They have a link to Sun's Java program there.  I broke the 3mbps barrier. I feel like Chuck Yeager!

Don't forget that you need to unplug your modem for 60 seconds and allow it to reconfigure itself for the new added speed.