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What's with you Brits and music? (Read 2272 times)
Dec 6th, 2003 at 1:45am

WebbPA   Ex Member
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I was quietly enjoying Holst's Planets Suite  (Jupiter) when I discovered that someone added "I Vow Thee My Country" (lyrics) to it.

Then I found that someone added "Land of Hope and Glory" to Pomp and Circumstace #1.

Can't you guys leave well enough alone?  What's next, rewriting Beethoven's (not English) 9th into "Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee"?

Now I'm kind of wondering about your second national anthem, Jerusalem.

And I just found another one - Opera Babes, Vittoria - wasn't the city actually named Vitoria (one T) and why is it in Italian (Spanish?) if the English won?
 
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Reply #1 - Dec 6th, 2003 at 2:13am

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I'm guessing you felt things were getting boring around here....................eh, Pericles?  Smiley
 

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Reply #2 - Dec 6th, 2003 at 2:30am

Hagar   Offline
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"I Vow To Thee My Country" is a hymn with the words by Cecil Spring-Rice added in 1918 to  the "Jupiter" section of Holst's Planet Suite - completed in 1916. The composer must have been aware of it & this was nothing unusual. Many much older hymns now thought of as traditional originated in a similar way. The words are patriotic but could apply equally to any country.

Quote:
I vow to thee, my country,
All earthly things above,
Entire and whole and perfect,
The service of my love:
The love that asks no question,
The love that stands the test,
That lays upon the altar
The dearest and the best;
The love that never falters,
The love that pays the price,
The love that makes undaunted
The final sacrifice.  

2. And there's another country,
I've heard of long ago,
Most dear to them that love her,
Most great to them that know;
We may not count her armies,
We may not see her King;
Her fortress is a faithful heart,
Her pride is suffering;
And soul by soul and silently
Her shining bounds increase,
And her ways are ways of gentleness
And all her paths are peace.  


The words of "Land of Hope and Glory" were added to Elgar's "Pomp and Circumstance" by the composer himself at the suggestion of the King. As Elgar was a loyal subject he could hardly object & was probably delighted to do it. It's very popular & played every year on the "Last Night of the Proms" at the Albert Hall. It's also used as the English anthem at the Commonwealth Games & other events as England has no official anthem of its own.

Did you ever hear Bobby Darin's recording of "Mac the Knife"?
 

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Reply #3 - Dec 6th, 2003 at 2:37am

WebbPA   Ex Member
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To be honest, yes. I appreciate the input from my British friends, as in our recent discussion of English/American terms  I am seriously interested in the English tendency to turn classical music into national hymns.

In America we have, of course, the Star Spangled Banner, but we also hear "My Country 'Tis of Thee" sung to the tune of "God Save The King",  "America the Beautiful" and "Battle Hymn of  the  Repubic" (..mine eyes have seen the glory)

So, just curious, not trolling.
 
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Reply #4 - Dec 6th, 2003 at 2:40am

Loafing Smurf   Offline
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I think the real question is, what is it about you brits and movies...like you know what they say about brit movies, they still make them but they still don’t make any money.

I should not make fun of that...like looks at us western people, some of us cant make a complete sentence properly.
 
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Reply #5 - Dec 6th, 2003 at 2:47am

Hagar   Offline
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I think it was just an accepted way of doing things. "Jerusalem" is actually based on William Blake's poem, itself based on the 23rd Psalm. The melody was composed & added afterwards.

Quote:
"My Country 'Tis of Thee" sung to the tune of "God Save The King",  "America the Beautiful" and "Battle Hymn of  the  Repubic" (..mine eyes have seen the glory)


I really never understood this one as I never liked it. Although it's the official British national anthem it's not popular in England or the UK.
 

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Reply #6 - Dec 6th, 2003 at 2:50am

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When the music was used for "National hymns" it wasn't "classical music" it was simply the popular music of the day.

We have one National Anthem, no more and no less.  As Hagar says there are many songs and hymns out there with patriotic sounding words but that is the case with most countries.  To be accused of this by an American does seem to be a case of the pot calling the kettle black IMO.

And as for the movies question......  Whatever Wink

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Reply #7 - Dec 6th, 2003 at 2:51am

Hagar   Offline
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LOL Ranger. Say what you like about British movies. They might not be internationally popular & rarely make a profit but they're invariably better in every way than anything that comes off the Hollywood production line. Tongue Wink
 

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Reply #8 - Dec 6th, 2003 at 2:51am

WebbPA   Ex Member
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Thanks for the info, Hagar.  I knew Holst was a Brit despite his apparent Swedish name.

And I please hope no one will take any offense - fora are so wierd about this -  but I seriously wondered about people adding lyrics to classcial tunes.

Is the Beethoven 9th played over there?  I hear you were fond of the 5th.
 
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Reply #9 - Dec 6th, 2003 at 2:59am

WebbPA   Ex Member
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Now that we're in to it, the best British movie of all time is Clockwork Orange. 1984+.  The soundtrack had Pomp and Circumstance #1 and #4 (there are 6 of them) and Beethoven #9.
 
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Reply #10 - Dec 6th, 2003 at 3:02am

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No offence taken Jim - not by me anyway. I'm all for improving international relations & understanding our differences. I'm not really into classical music although I enjoy some & wish I knew more about it. Beethoven is always very popular & I'm sure his music is often featured in concerts. My daughter would be able to tell you as she's a classically trained musician with a BA Honours degree in music.

PS. I've never seen "Clockwork Orange" & have no desire to. The trailers I saw & reviews I've read were enough to put me off. I hate violence in any form & it's not my idea of entertainment.
 

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Reply #11 - Dec 6th, 2003 at 3:02am

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I think you've hit the nail on the head Jim.  Whilst I don't agree that Clockwork Orange is the best British movie of all time it does illustrate the point that you can make a damn good movie here and fail to make much from it.

Will
 

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Reply #12 - Dec 6th, 2003 at 3:15am

WebbPA   Ex Member
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I just wanted to discuss music. I thought a mod would dump me into the neverland of the music forum.  Now we're into movies.  OK, Clockwork Orange is my all time favorite because of the plot, politics (still relevant after 30 years), music and gratuitous sex and violence.

Geez, we could open a forum on any of these.
 
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Reply #13 - Dec 6th, 2003 at 3:21am

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Quote:
OK, Clockwork Orange is my all time favorite because of the plot, politics (still relevant after 30 years), music and gratuitous sex and violence.

I would have to disagree strongly with this. Clockwork Orange is seen as acceptable now & even regarded as a classic in some quarters. Gratuitous violence is not & should not be classed as entertainment. Has it ever occurred to anyone that the acceptance & glorification of this sort of crap coincides with the general decline in morals & decency in our society?
 

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Reply #14 - Dec 6th, 2003 at 3:30am

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Ok, but I never seen any Euro movie that I liked.

Well, if you consider Legend of 1900 a Euro movie maybe.

As for Clockwork Orange I never seen it, so cant say much about it. I dont think I've seen any Rubrik films.
 
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Reply #15 - Dec 6th, 2003 at 3:51am

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Ranger have you ever seen Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels, or Snatch. They're both Guy Ritchie movies and British. IMO some of the best  material put out in a while. American movies IMO (and I'm American mind you) are like listening to a broken record, it's the same thing over and over. Good guy vs Bad Guy--Bad Guy beats up good guy--Good Guy makes miraculous comeback---followed by cheesy 1/2 hour long fight scene--with a few sex scenes sprinkled on for good measure.
 

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Reply #16 - Dec 6th, 2003 at 3:54am

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Quote:
Ok, but I never seen any Euro movie that I liked.

Maybe that's because you don't get the chance. It's not easy to persuade the US distributors to show or promote anything other than home-produced stuff.

Please don't confuse Britain with Europe. This is a common mistake with Americans & maybe the reason for the general lack of interest. There are many fine films produced in countries all over Europe but each one has its own distinctive methods & should be treated separately. The British film industry is unique. This is why directors like Spielberg often make their films here & insist on British film crews & technicians.
 

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Reply #17 - Dec 6th, 2003 at 4:13am

Loafing Smurf   Offline
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Quote:
Ranger have you ever seen Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels, or Snatch. They're both Guy Ritchie movies and British. IMO some of the best  material put out in a while. American movies IMO (and I'm American mind you) are like listening to a broken record, it's the same thing over and over. Good guy vs Bad Guy--Bad Guy beats up good guy--Good Guy makes miraculous comeback---followed by cheesy 1/2 hour long fight scene--with a few sex scenes sprinkled on for good measure.


I seen those movies at the rental store. I think I saw Snatch, its about the million dollar diamond?

I also agree how Hollywood movies are repetitive. (I'm sick of Segal movies, something bad happens then he kicks butt) Action movies follow the same plot over and over, like what you said. Pretty much love stories are always the same. There is a loving couple, the girl falls in love with some other guy, then she goes for the person she loved in the beginning.

I like how some movies poke at the repetitiveness, like Austin Powers.

Quote:
Maybe that's because you don't get the chance. It's not easy to persuade the US distributors to show or promote anything other than home-produced stuff.

Please don't confuse Britain with Europe. This is a common mistake with Americans & maybe the reason for the general lack of interest. There are many fine films produced in countries all over Europe but each one has its own distinctive methods & should be treated separately. The British film industry is unique. This is why directors like Spielberg often make their films here & insist on British film crews & technicians.


Sorry, my mistake. Please accept my apology.  Cry I'm a bit single minded when it comes to movies, 98% of the time its from Hollywood. Then its either good or bad.

I never knew, Spielberg does stuff in England.

Something I did notice was British accents in Star Wars, from George Lucas.
 
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Reply #18 - Dec 6th, 2003 at 5:36am

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"Soldier Blue" came out at about the same time as "Clockwork Orange" and thinking of Soldier Blue gives me nightmares even now for it's violence.... Shocked...!

...now Chevy Chase's "Christmas Lampoon" or "The Money Pit", etc,  films are more my idea of entertainment for a good-old laugh...!

As for Composers...
Henry Purcell, John Dowland, J.S. Bach, Handel and Mozart.. Grin...!
I play their pieces on my instruments... 8)...!

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Reply #19 - Dec 6th, 2003 at 8:00am

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Quote:
Sorry, my mistake. Please accept my apology.  Cry I'm a bit single minded when it comes to movies, 98% of the time its from Hollywood. Then its either good or bad.

I never knew, Spielberg does stuff in England.

Something I did notice was British accents in Star Wars, from George Lucas.

Don't apologise Ranger. It's not just you. Most Americans that haven't visited my country seem to have some strange ideas about it - & us. LOL Tongue

As for Star Wars. I believe all the effects for the original films were done in the British studios that pioneered the techniques used for many similar films. These studios are still in the forefront of effects today & much in demand. The cast includes famous British actors like Peter Cushing (Grand Moff Tarkin) & the late Sir Alec Guinness as Obi-Wan Kenobi. Carrie Fisher's "English" accent might be fine in the US but has been much criticised.

I can go back much further than most of you & fondly remember the great black & white classics. Films like The Dam Busters & countless Ealing comedies like "The Lavender Hill Mob" (also starring Alec Guinness) still hold their own today. One of the better war films would have to be "A Bridge Too Far". I doubt it was on general release in the US.

All the Bond films were made here & you must have seen the classic "Italian Job". Coming up to date, the Harry Potter films are made here with a British cast & scripted by a British author. I'm sure there are many more but I rarely watch films now & my memory is fading. I'm not keen on Austin Powers myself as it's typically too in-your-face for my taste in comedy. From what I saw of the first one it's a pale imitation of a British send-up like Peter Sellers & his Inspector Clouseau. I dread to think what the proposed Hollywood version of "The Italian Job" will be like. How can you possibly improve on a masterpiece? Roll Eyes

If you haven't seen them you must have heard of Gandhi & Lawrence of Arabia, two examples of the British film industry at its best. Unfortunately, films cost vast amounts of money these days & producers are reluctant to invest in anything featuring actors unknown outside the UK or Europe. This is the main reason for the decline of the industry & the popular trend in low-budget films from our studios.

The best war film ever made must be the original "Das Boot". IMHO
I imagine the subtitles would put many people off watching it but they don't detract from the fine acting & taut drama. This all-German film is an all-time classic.
 

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Reply #20 - Dec 6th, 2003 at 8:08am

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Quote:
I dread to think what the proposed  Hollywood version of "The Italian Job" will be like. How can you possibly improve on a masterpiece? Roll Eyes


This proposed film as been made and released. I watched it and so long as you completely forget that the original italian job ever existed then its not too bad. However, it is exceedingly american and IMHO if you are going to put in loads of references to the original film then you cannot have a leading character called Charlie Croker. Over all if it was not called The Italian Job then it wouldn't be all that bad. Except they use new Minis which are far to big. And it takes place in america. And there are not many new ideas thrown in.
 

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Reply #21 - Dec 6th, 2003 at 8:09am

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Oh yeah, and talking about British movies. What about Monty Python and the Holy Grail? Or the Life of Brian? Or the Meaning of Life?
 

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Reply #22 - Dec 6th, 2003 at 8:21am
Silent Exploder   Ex Member

 
Quote:
Please don't confuse Britain with Europe. This is a common mistake with Americans & maybe the reason for the general lack of interest.  The British film industry is unique. This is why directors like Spielberg often make their films here & insist on British film crews & technicians.


Angry Angry Angry Angry
just because britain is an island,it doesn't mean that it's not european...
 
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Reply #23 - Dec 6th, 2003 at 8:49am

Hagar   Offline
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Quote:
Angry Angry Angry Angry
just because britain is an island,it doesn't mean that it's not european...

I'm not saying that Silent. You're missing the point I was trying to make. I was referring to the different film industries. German films are different to French films which are different to British ones. Lumping them all together as "Euro" films is a mistake. There's no such thing as a typical ""European" film. Wink
 

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Reply #24 - Dec 6th, 2003 at 9:12am
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hm,mkay. but you haven't pointed that out so exactly the first time..Roll Eyes
 
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Reply #25 - Dec 6th, 2003 at 9:17am

Hagar   Offline
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Quote:
hm,mkay. but you haven't pointed that out so exactly the first time..Roll Eyes

I'm sorry but that was the precise point I was trying to make. I always try very hard to explain things as clearly as possible without confusing anyone. This isn't always so easy on an international forum. I must be slipping in my old age. ??? Cheesy
 

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Reply #26 - Dec 7th, 2003 at 2:55am

WebbPA   Ex Member
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As Rush Limbaugh would say, "I told you so".  We're in Music now.  How we got into movies/cinema I'll never know.

To Will, the staunchest defender of England next to Winston Churchill (and I mean that in a good way), the US is almost but not as bad as the UK in its adoption of classical tunes as secondary national anthems.

The Star Spangled Banner was based on a drinking tune.  So what?  I feel a rush of pride every time I hear it  I also share a sense of national pride when I hear "God Save The Queen" and "Oh, Canada".  I admit my ignorance in not knowing Germany's current national anthem but "Deutschland, Uber Alles", based on Haydn, also moved me.  There is a Protestant hymn based on the same tune.
 
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Reply #27 - Dec 7th, 2003 at 3:43am

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Hagar, you amaze me!!
How in the world can you post info on music and then say you don't know much about it?  Do you sit at the computer with a encyclopida? incredible!!
Didn't I see you on Jepordy once?
 
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Reply #28 - Dec 7th, 2003 at 4:50am

Hagar   Offline
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Fretnstuff. I've been interested in music for as long as I can remember. That must be well over 50 years & among other things I was/am a musician myself.

I don't know much about modern "rock" music & have very little knowledge on classical. I checked my facts on Google before commenting in this thread to prevent making myself appear an idiot. The WWW is my encyclopedia. Cheesy
 

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Reply #29 - Dec 7th, 2003 at 5:15am

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Your knowledge is appreciated!!
I love learning something new everyday!!!!
 
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Reply #30 - Dec 7th, 2003 at 5:24am

Hagar   Offline
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I'm always pleased to add my two penn'orth as you might have noticed. I also have very strong opinions on some issues that I'm not afraid to express at any opportunity. Although I would never deliberately offend anyone this can sometimes get me into trouble. Roll Eyes

I've led a very interesting life so far & have always been interested in a wide range of subjects. If someone benefits from some of the knowledge I've picked up over the years I'm delighted. I invariably learn more on this forum than I contribute. Doesn't seem a bad deal to me. Wink
 

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Reply #31 - Dec 7th, 2003 at 8:36am
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Quote:
I admit my ignorance in not knowing Germany's current national anthem but "Deutschland, Uber Alles", based on Haydn, also moved me.  There is a Protestant hymn based on the same tune.


erm....this is the first part of the "song of the germans" and it's forbidden since the end of WW2,along with the second part.
however ,the third part became the official national anthem in 1991,after the reunion.

i've got the lyrics of the current hymn here,but i don't have an idea how to translate them...

"Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit
Für das deutsche Vaterland!
Danach lasst uns alle streben,
Brüderlich mit Herz und Hand!
Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit
Sind des Glückes Unterpfand:
Blüh im Glanze dieses Glückes,
Blühe, deutsches Vaterland!"

i'll try it nevertheless:

"Unity and law and freedom
For the german father land!
Let us strive for this,
Brotherly with heart and hand!
Unity and law and freedom,
Are luck's pledge(??):
Bloom in the glime of this luck,
Bloom ,german fatherland!"

well,at least i tried,eh?  Wink
 
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Reply #32 - Dec 7th, 2003 at 2:01pm

WebbPA   Ex Member
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I understand all the forbidden Nazi stuff but surely they can play Haydn, Wagner, Beethoven, etc.  If they banned "Nazi music" that would kind of strip away 500 years of musical heritage.  If they banned Italian "Axis music" that would do away with about 90% of western musical heritage.  I'd go nuts if all I could listen to were Britten and Tchaikowski.
 
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Reply #33 - Dec 7th, 2003 at 4:00pm

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Well alot of Britain wouldn't like to be considered europe you know. I'm sure Germany wouldn't like to be confused with a country close like France.

The only country in Britain I have seen really embrace Euro policy is Ireland and thats mainly Southern Island (not part of Britain.)
 
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Reply #34 - Dec 8th, 2003 at 10:51am

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Music has always played an intrinsic part in British films; look at 'Scott of the Antarctic' and the way that Vaughan Williams depicted this environment in the music. 'Curse of the werewolf' from Hammer in the 1950s was among the first films to use atonal effects for weirdness, long before it happened again with 'Alien'. Even John Williams copied the English musical style at the end of Star Wars.

Even noticed that the 'baddies' in Hollywood films have always had English accents? From Colin Clive in 'Frankenstein' through Peter Lorre, George Sanders and Peter Cushing in Star Wars. Must be the accent and the ability to raise one eyebrow.

These days, the only really saleable British film that even gets recognised transatlantically is the ubiquitous upbeat-romantic-comedy type, and even then we (occasionally) have to rely on a Hollywood star wearing a British accent - very well indeed, in Renee Zellweger's case - to sell it over there. Which will be Ewan MacGregor's most recognised roles - Obi-Wan Kenobi (where he's mostly slept through the part so far in episodes 1 and 2) or the UK-based films he's starred in this year?

Having said that, I enjoy a good film, with chocolate covered raisins and a cup of coffee. (And my mobile phone turned off, of course.)

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Reply #35 - Dec 8th, 2003 at 11:19am
Silent Exploder   Ex Member

 
Quote:
I understand all the forbidden Nazi stuff but surely they can play Haydn, Wagner, Beethoven, etc.

it was just because of the lyrics - not the music.
 
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