I voted #2.

I voted #1, and to all of those that voted #4.  I have a quick question... Why and the hell are you even visiting this section of the forums? Makes absolutely no sense to me.

Like BE58D....
I voted No.1
...for some very good reasons... ...!

Cheers all... ...!
Paul.

For all those who de-cry "Payware", try downloading FS Navigator and LAGO's FSE, (Flight Sim Enhancer), trial versions for FS 2004 and see what a difference they make to your enjoyment of the Flight Sim program...!
You will soon fork-out a few pennies to obtain the full versions...trust me... ...!

Cheers all... ...!
Paul.

http://www.fsnavigator.com
http://www.lagoonline.com

There are some good reasons for some payware projects.

Take the Vulcan for example

Also, PAI is being kept freeware by payware. Flight1 sponsors PAI.

I never cease to be amazed at the sheer professionalism and level of detail that is put into producing FS Navigator for the Flight Sim series.
A program of this type and complexity, is not available anywhere else.
The program has been "bug free" from the first day it was produced and is fully supported by it's own web site.

That is what "payware" is all about, and that sort of quality is worth every penny of it's cost... 8)...!

http://www.fsnavigator.com

Cheers all... ...!
Paul.

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This is plain BULL ...

What is wrong in wanting SOME remuneration for one's efforts?

I have no problem with someone doing a payware project, nor with someone keeping their projects freeware.  Sometimes it's just as simple as a company saying "Hey, if you do this plane for us, we'll pay you for it!"

Payware flightsim products exist because people will buy it, pure and simple.  IT's laudable that you keep your Mercedes and Porsche projects as freeware, but if you had decided to go the payware route, so be it!

If you're a freeware freak, great, but that doesn't mean that someone else who does payware (and freeware) is any less dedicated to putting out a quality product.

Hi

This is an interesting debate, so I thought that I would add to it........

IMHO    .....................................

Freeware is the lifeblood of FS. Its allows 'oldies' (perhaps on a fixed income) to continue to enjoy new FS experiences. At the same time it allows youngsters (with not much pocket money) to enter the FS community and help ensure that it continues to thrive.
And I am not forgeting those in between 

Payware is a natural consequence in a free society.

We all have a choice to use or not use freeware/payware 

So what are the issues?

Three spring to mind......................

Firstly, the lack of respect that a small minority of users show towards freeware developers. As a freeware developer myself, I can assure you that it is not funny to receive a rude email about your work ( and I dont mean genuine constructive criticism which is always welcome). Also, after spending many weeks on a project, to find that some-one copies it, makes a few minor changes, and then claims credit for your work! Fortunately, all decent FS sites do respect your copyright, but it still causes a hassle that is not fun.

Secondly, the improving quality of freeware has created a growing overlap with payware ie the best freeware is now consistently better than the worst payware. This might suggest that too many are now trying to make a quick buck?

Thirdly, some payware is becoming too highly priced. Whilst I have purchased a number of payware aircraft, I find that anything over around $20 is very hard to justify.

What do you think?

Cheers Paul  8)

Felix:
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I didn't mean to offend anyone.

Still, I stick with what I said before.

I have seen many payware addons that were listed at unreasonable prices for their kind. On the other hand, I have seen payware addons at fair prices.

Payware mainly exists because there are people on a tight budget with huge dept [repaying loans, morgage, taxes, medical bills, etc.]. Not only that, There are a lot of websites [that provides the addon] that require money in order to be maintained. Don't forget the cost of distribution as well and support.

Yes, you are right. Most people do deserve money for their work.

For me, I don't expect much in return for as long as I am recognized in a positive way for my work.

If I EVER did a payware addon, I STILL wouldn't charge no more than $2. Reason: Numbers.

If I made an addon that costs $2 and sold each copy to 100,000 people nationwide or 1,000,000 people worldwide....well....do the math from there.

PS: I was never attempting to affend anyone.

I should back off away from these Payware forums since I easily get started on such things. Besides, a forum like this can sometimes start a minor flare up [which just happened].

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Well, I rather make my money from jobs and investments. I understand that it's easy-money when it comes to payware addons. Now that you mentioned the Tax-Consiquense, going Payware is my LAST resort.

It's ok for those who choose to go payware. This is America, Capitalism thrives here.

You're right, it's nice to have that new Geforce 4 FX series or an Athlon 64Bit processor with that little check.

Their are a certain number of addons that I really like to pay for.

There is this addon that enhances the default Miami Int'l Airport [KMIA] with great details. It's called Fly-Miami. It updates the airport with all the things that are truely happening in the real-world version of KMIA.

In reality, KMIA has been under construction for about 30 years and they are still working on it. There are even construction cranes that are errecting some new buildings.

I believe [IMHO] that scenery deserve more credit than the aircraft. It's easy to create Payware aircraft [if you read the tuts and tips]. However, it's never easy to create Payware scenery. Scenery is the hardest addon to make.

You have to find accurate and detailed satellite images, you have to figure out how high a mountain is [if any], you have to figure out the precise locations, and you have to make it as accurate as possible. And that is a real test of your patience. Especially if it's Payware.

I will accept any payware sceneries that are GREAT [as in near-perfect]and involves Miami or it's major airports, or involves its major beaches, or the Port of Miami.

I love Miami.

The Fly-Miami scenery costs at around $10-15 USD. So far, I have to demo version.

There is even Fly-Tampa [judge by its name].

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A lot of the scenery data is available already in digitized format.  Satellite imagery is useful for accurate texturing and placement of landmark buildings, etc.

In this I agree that *accurate* scenery is more than taking a good photo image and slapping it on a box object.

Payware addons are made by skilled developers who are experts in their own field. If you are extremely good at making detailed aircraft with accurate flight dynamics, then you do deserve a reward for your hard work.

Remember, it takes skill and practice [and lots of it] to create a near-perfect payware addon.

It took me 3 years to master Gmax and it's special tools that many people rarely use or don't even know. And I'm still learning.

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The so-called "right" that is printed in all the "read-me" files of every addon is there for a reason. Credibility.

There are many people still out there that are more than willing to take your addons, modify it and redistribute without permission, and claim that the new addon is fully theirs while the original authers are left in the dark without any recognition or any form of credit.

If you created an addon that took you 2 years to create [like my Mercedes] and finish and found out that someone stole your addon and claimed it as theirs, how would you feel? Pissed off, right?

This really happened before. There was a report [long ago] that many of the freeware addons [here in simviation] were stolen and added into a commercial CD without any permission from the authers. Bonzonie's B-52 was among the victims.

Anyways. Like one of the people here in simviation always says, 'you pays your money and you take your chance'.

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I think you have misunderstood me Katahu.  I mean that the consumers appear to be demanding the "right" to have addons for free and openly stating that the developers are naughty to demand money.

Will

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Wait..i really mean no offense..please..but this makes me think...what were you looking for?..some kind of recognition..or some wage?..i have to ask, but then again..i REALLY mean no offense.
Sometimes when you don´t know nothing about a subject you ask about it..and if you learn from someone else..well,  the least you can do is give him or her a recognition about it. BUT thinking that becouse you helped him/her or guide him/her doesn´t gives him the right to apply what he/she learned from someone or mainly  you is..well.....wrong
At least from my point of view

HAGAR..i´m not looking for any kind of confrontation or looking to offend you, but i think that your point of view is wrong...and this is what forums are all about

Anyway...here it is

best regards

Prowler

Quote:

Well Prowler. I take no offence at your question although it does surprise me a little. I made it quite clear that I expect no profit or recognition from my hobby. I'll admit that it is nice when anyone is kind enough to credit me for my help, which many have, but that is not a condition nor expected. The point is that it IS a hobby & I would not put myself out to help people who in my opinion are trying to make a quick buck. Not only that but in doing so are illegally using the very same Freeware utilities I taught them to use......!

I will willingly help anyone with a genuine interest who cares to ask & have been doing so continuously for over 4 years. I'm not only talking about the small tips I give here on this forum. I have spent literally hours & sometimes days patiently teaching people how to use various utilities via e-mail.

I hope this clears up what I was trying to say. I won't even mention the occasions when unscrupulous pirates have stolen my work (& that of my friends) & tried selling it with not even a credit to the genuine authors. Unfortunately this is the risk any Freeware author takes. Once their work is posted on the internet they lose all control over it. You can bet that someone, somewhere will abuse this simple requirement posted with all my own files.

I would have thought that was easy enough for anyone to understand.

Hi Katahu. I didn't mean to send this thread off-topic & don't see what this has to to with Payware.

In my experience the only way to GUARANTEE that someone will not pirate your work is not to post it in the first place. When it happens the first time it hurts bad. You get over it & the next time it's not so bad _ & so it goes on. If the thought of this happening to you bothers you that much you might as well give up now.

Just to make this clear. I'm not interested in credit or reward. I do this for pleasure. The thought of some untalented individual profiting from what is & should be free revolts me. That's all.

Long ago someone pointed out that in the past, many people loved the idea of making flight simulator addons for free and as a hobby.

But look at us today. Well, for some of us.

With all my knowledge and my very own checking account [finally], I can easily put a price tag on my addons if I want to.

HOWEVER, I didn't. This is because I feel that it is too early for me to go Payware because A) I feel that I don't have enough design experience to go that path and B) I feel too young to start going payware [I'm 19].

But I douht that I ever will. Going payware will probably make me feel like a heel.

1st we have to realise we are in the early stages of digital entertainment.
2nd - By definition everyone here is a 'payware supporter' - because you have bought your
base sim -from Microsoft.
I'm basically a supporter of progress & if that means paying for it - so be it.... But the greatest progress is more than very often made by genuine enthusiast who are motivated purely by the buzz of this great hobby.
There are several factors that spring to mind in this thread:

Extremely honourable behaviour:
Those who devote considerable time creating a masterpiece or contributing a lot of their time to helping others to get more out FS/CFS - driven purely by enthusiasm & a generous inner attitude. These are the 'good people' of this world & get very little of the appreciation they deserve. (dishonourable behaviour by users who don't think of feeding back...!) - We're talking 100's - sometimes even 1000's hours here..
Honourable behaviour
All those who give without thought of 'what's in it for me' We're talking hours & 10's of hours here ....
Dishonourable behaviour
People who claim they are making freeware - use sites like this & attain a ton of help on false pretences only to release their files through a payware company. Happens regularly. They should be honest from the outset. I even had one guy asking me to buy him FSDS, as he was 'out of work'  - which I did - only to watch him release his multiple work (at least 3 aircraft) through a well known commercial company

Extremely dishonourable behaviour  
Any user who openly complains that a freeware file sucks!(the 'idiot' is highlighted).

Commercial companies who poach freeware sites like this & offer 'exclusive' contracts to active developers they have been watching, with offers of relatively small sums - which means withdrawing previous files (aircab is an example).

At the end of the day - the user SHOULD have the choice. Buy - or have an alternative of freely provided talent .  - We are in a metamorphosis - the Internet is changing & 'digital entertainment' (including FS) is becoming a major form of entertainment. Many good things are happening. Some back street cats are showing their colors. That's human beings for ya!

But at the end of the day - if someone wishes to charge for their work - you have the choice.

How any different is it to buying add-ons for your gleamingly polished car,  RC aircraft, fishing or any other hobby for that matter?

I contribute plenty of time in the forums. However, I never keep track as to how many hours I have spent here. Therefore, I assume that I am in the "Honourable Behaviour" range.

It's very unlikely that a Payware company would offer me a contract. This is because I make cars and not planes for FS. Not that many people are willing to drive in a flight sim.

The same thing goes to Hagar. He makes tanks. I wonder why. This is not a war simulator, you know. But then again, this is not a car-driving simulator either.

I voted No. 2. But personally i prefer freeware. The question shouldn't be if you like freeware or payware. Rather you should ask what purpose do each search. If youre selling your software, as some of those who posted in favor of it, as i admit i would do, that is sell my software, then go for it. But we must remember that the way things are going with the internet we will soon see nothing for free.You would have to pay for everything.The internet will become a giant store where nothing is free. All you would find would be adds, adds and adds. Everything for sale, including email and chatrooms. Sites will charge for logging in to it. Just give this a few years and you'll see it! The only way to share would be on a peer to peer basis and this would also be attacked. Nothing against selling your work, i repeat! But lets give room to sharing and creating communities like the one we belong to, the flight simulator community, and let its purpose continue to be the one it has been until now, to share and make friends. Something money will never be able to buy. A suggestion to Simviation's staff. The fourth question is a tricky one. People do not necesarily hate payware or want it banned. Your forcing people to choose one of the other answers that more or less favor payware. This leads me to think that you will soon be charging to  make downloads from your site and limiting the access to those looking for freeware, like Flightsim.com does. In other words, Flightsim.com charges you for its "premiun membership." But if you logon to it and try to gain access to their library, it tells to come back later thus forcing you to become a pay member because you never get access. Please...dont make the same mistake!
Good luck to all!

I'm a firm supporter of payware.

I'm only 13, so some of you may say, "WTF is a 13 year old doing supporting payware?"

Well, I have bought several payware addons and like what I got. (thanks to the 1st National Bank of Mom and Dad)

Since I don't have a credit card and can't aquire one, along w/ many other minors who play FS, we need our parent's permission to buy payware.

Because of this, (this has just been MY OBSERVATION) many minors don't like payware because if they ask their parents, they fear that they'll say "$30 for a plane? No way."

But...I caught my parents in a very good mood one night and from there, they bought me my first payware planes. AlphaSim's Su-47 and MiG-25! I was so impressed with the sheer quality. Next I bought LAGO's F-16 and AlphaSim's A-10. Soon I'll get LAGO's Tornado...they did promise me that.

Some kids have payware. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it's just that the vast majority of payware owners are adults, as they have easier access to buying.

It all comes down to wether you want to lay down the cash or not. (if you can )

(The BIG advantage you adults have over us kids is that you can buy whatever you want. Only a few years, only a few more years...just wait... )

Just my opinion...

Wow, that's great Falcon and Im glad your parents are so good to you! You must surely be a good teenager for them as well, and that's really something in todays world.
I might recomend you look into the works of Bill Lyons, his payware pakages are all only $12.50 and are the best deals around, and the best work too as well.

And you dont just get a plane, you get several versions of it, scenery to go with it, and usually a surface vehicle or two as well. Not to mention lots of other goodies like special effects.
His latest two pkg's "Golden Hawaii" & Cutters Goose are simply the best there is for $12.50

Check em out here : http://windrfters.com/

I'm glad there is lots of freeware out there and the Microsoft has made their FS applications so open to modifications and add-ons.

I have no problem whatwoever with payware, though. After all, you paid for the original FS, right?

My problem may seem like a dumb question, but where do I find good payware add-ons?  Sometimes I would like to get a good add-on plane (or mission) for CFS1 or 2 and I just want the plane to work without spending lots of time putzing around with it.  I'm willing to pay a reasonable price if it's good.

Thanks, Silver Fox

The planes at Alpha Sim look very nice.  Question:  are payware products any easier to install than freeware ones?  I have been having very inconsistent results installing freeware planes.

For other kids that want payware, I've compiled a list of tips for you...

• 1. Get good grades in school. This is the MOST important.You might not get aircraft, but most parents will give their child anything they ask if they do good in school, as an incentive for further excellent performance. (within reason of course...)
• 2. Master the art of negotiation and persuasion.
• 3. Regarding the payware you want, if you find yourself walking into your local EB, and happen to see a payware aircraft/scenery/whatever in a box, GET IT. That way, your parents don't have to use their credit card.
• 4. Make sure that the payware you get is of exceptional quality. I.E. NO Abacus...they have good utilities, but, in the words of planespotter, "piss-poor" aircraft...FD3 is a great little program though, so do yourself a favor and get it. If your parent's spend $30 of their money and they find out that you get a horrible aircraft...you can probably say goodbye to any future purchases...
• 5. Another VERY important tip: BE PATIENT! Good things come to those that wait. If you keep nagging your parents, they'll just say no and that will be that.
• 6. Timing is EVERYTHING. Don't ask your parents for a plane when they're fuming and expect to get it...

That's all for now...if you have anything to add, tell me and I'll add it in...

Hope this helps!

Looks like I have to buy my CF-100 now after all...it's been updated and it would be rather classless to ask for a free upgrade for a free review copy of a plane.

Only $9.00 (US) so it's well worth it for me.

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Yeah - especially when part of one of mine is going to be there..

I have to admit I voted #4 initially on the poll, but after reading some of your responces, I'd have to agree that I would (and will) support Payware addons.  I still think it's kind of a low-blow to charge people for single addons for a program most of us already payed 60 bucks for, but it promotes a much higher level of detail in the products.  The only payware I'm getting are the F/A-18 Hornets by aerialfoundry as that's the only plane (for me personally) worth spending any money for (I love my sweetheart very dearly) but I am quite confident my investment will be extrememly worth while.  Being a college student also in the flight program, I certainly hope the price is low (ie under $20) but if not, oh well, no food for another nite. j/k

In the end I would change my vote to number 1.