Simviation Forum - Multiple joystick / yoke installations (repost)

Oct 23^rd, 2003 at 12:16am

JBaymore Offline
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This is a starting point for moving prior postings from the "Homebrew Cockpits Survey" thread. Messages will likely get out of the original sequence.

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Reply #1 - Oct 25^th, 2003 at 12:12pm

JBaymore Offline
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Hi all......

This post should really be another topic if this were a forum section:

Help with second joystick installation question

Can I install a second USB joystick unit and then map it's buttons to a set of different functions in the sim from the ones handled by the primary joystick?

Would this have to be the same brand of joystick to make it work? Or would it be best if it were a DIFFERENT brand?

Am I right in assuming (bad idea Wink

) that a joystick with a throttle, pitch, bank, and twist (yaw) will have four analog position inputs?

I am hoping this is possible..... so that I can use those four analog inputs for ANOTHER use than is typical Wink

.

best,

................john

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Reply #2 - Oct 25^th, 2003 at 12:14pm

JBaymore Offline
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Quote:

Yes John, in answer to your question you can add a second USB device and map differant functions to the buttons. At one point I had a joy pad and joystick attached. Problem was I couldn't remember what the various buttons were supposed to do and I had to let go of the joystick (primary flight control) to grab the joy pad.

Will

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Reply #3 - Oct 25^th, 2003 at 12:16pm

JBaymore Offline
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Will,

Thanks for that information on connecting the second USB joystick. I figured that might likely be possible..... since you can set up throttles, and yokes, and pedals all together. But I wondered if there were some "caveats" about doing so.

What I am thinking with this question is this..........

Since I am modeling a generic "heavy" cockpit..... I will need a four engine throttle quadrant. The switches (pushbuttons / toggles) for various functions such as fuel pumps and cuttoffs and such are easy and kinda' self explanatory. But the REAL issue is the analog input of each throttle position.

If I can canibalize a joystick with four analog potentiometers, then a mechanical structure creating a fake throttle quadrant could be constructed and then I could connect those four pots (or four other ones of the same values) to the four levers that are the "throttles".

I can already sort of envision the general construction of such a unit. Not too hard...... some wood for the boxy frame with rounded tops on the sides, some plastic for various parts like knobs, a sheet off plastic or metal for the slotted top cover, a little rubber sheet for the "gaskets" in the lever slots, some metal straps for the throttle handles and the axis shaft around which they pivot, and a bit of epoxy, screws, and filddlin'.

And the various switch functions that the joystick has can then also be assigned either to the "engine" switch type functions..... or reserved for OTHER controls in the cockpit. This may be the way that I have to simulate the thrust reversers........ rather than the typical levers. Maybe a little button on each throttle lever.....kinda' like the "overdrive" buttons on many automatic car transmission shifters ( Wink

). Not totally realistic.... but close.

Yeah...... the "remembering what is what" on generic unlabeled buttons is an issue. But with the simulated cockpit setup....... you'll likely label each switch, the switches will stay in one place ( Wink

), and eventually you will "know" your own cockpit layout much like you get to know the controls in your car after using it for a while.

best,

..............john

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Reply #4 - Oct 25^th, 2003 at 12:22pm

JBaymore Offline
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Copy of related topic post from "Hardware" section

Quote:

Is there a way to link 2 identicle sticks, 2 throttles and 2 sets of rudder pedals to the same pc to create a co-pilot position for a cockpit project, or would I have to network the two positions with 2 PCs? This is probably a dumb question. Thanx

BaileyGirl,

Hi and welcome to SimV.

I am working on a simulated cockpit project also.

The answer is yes..... with some "possibly difficult to construct" caveats.

In a real world dual setup the physical movements of both the rudder pedals and the yoke would be "mirrored" to the other position. If the captain turned the yoke to the right.... the first officers yoke would also pivot to the right. Pitch down on one and the other moves forward too. To model this type of exact behavior requires a lot of either mechanical linkage or servomotors to be driving things.

Constructing a mechanical yoke system is not all that difficult if you are handy with tools and mechanical design.......... just kinda "fussy" and time consuming and likely a bit on the "pricey side" when all is said and done. There are a couple of companies that sell such "real" looking and functioning large jet yokes..... but unless you are willing to go about $600 per station......... you'd best be thinking of how to do it yourself.

Cable linkages under the raised floor of the simulated cockpit are the usual route for this setup. Gets into a bunch of pulleys and gears and it translates the movement of both sticks into the movement of just a set of two linear or slide potentiometers (like volume controls) that are interfaced into the sim the same way a joystick is. In fact you can canibalize a joystick for the interface card electronics and then just re-use the potentiometers in a new location if your design matches. Or use different potentiometers (also called "pots") that are of the same resistance value.

If you just want "dual controls" and can do without the matching motion feedback part of things ......... you can just connect two USB joysticks, for example. Whichever one is "touched" in any way (moved) then suddenly takes flight control priority. Ditto throttle controlls, and ditto pedals. Any USB controller tends to work this way.

The problem with this setup, aside from the lack of motion feedback, is that when the second control is
moved, then whatever "setting" the first control was at is suddenly overridden. This can result in some really jerky transitions of control. For examople if the throttle at the captain's position was at 90 percent.... and then the co-pilot touched the throttle at his/her side and it was initially starting at an idle setting..... the engines would, for an instant, drop from 90 percent to idle...and then spool back up to whatever setting the co-pilot then had set.

Since you are interested in "Simulated Homebrew Cockpits" you might want to go down to the "General" Section of the forums and check out the thread there that is about this very subject. It is possible that a forum section for this exact subject may get set up if there is enough demonstrated interest. Please vote in the little "survey" if you haven't already.

There is a picture or two down there of the ongoing construction of my new throttle quadrant. It might give you some ideas. It is not including servomotor feedback so that things like autothrottle will itself move the position of the throttles.... although that is doable (requires some expensive electronics starting with an EPIC interface card). It is set up to control four engines, spoilers, and flaps.

I am posting a copy of this message down in that thread also...... to keep the "cockpit topic" running all together in one place at least for now ..........until we see if "the powers that be" will grant forum status to this concept.

Welcome to the "oddball" world of building a home simulator Wink

.

best,

....................john

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Reply #5 - Oct 25^th, 2003 at 12:25pm

JBaymore Offline
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Quote:

Thanks for your time John. If I were to link 2 force feedback sticks using usb ports as you described, does that mean they will each perform their "feedback" motions simultaneously? I do not want that to happen.

Bailey_Girl,

I am not sure. Never tried .........but I think so.

If it does,.......... you likely could simulate the "transfer" of control from the captain's sidestick to the first officer's side stick in something like an Airbus 320 cockpit (no yokes) by taking the DC power lead that powers the force feedback of the two sticks and putting them onto a switch. You'd need a double pole, double throw. Plus and minus power comes to the common terminals....then switched to eithrer one or the other "throw" positions....which lead to the sticks. Pushbutton would look more like the real thing on an Airbus. Rotary would work also.

Push it to the "Captain" designation and the power is turned off to the first officer's force feedback... and switch it to "First Officer" and the power gets turned off to the captain's ff. This would not disable the stick itself.... just the force feedback, I think. Even better if it also disables the stick.

Hope this helps. If you have two ff sticks...... just connect them and see what happens. I don't here otherwise I'd try it. I am interested in this myself... 'cause I want to use that force feedback circuit from the second stick to drive something ELSE Wink

.

best,

...................john

PS: Sorry I responded down here...wanted to keep this "cockpit" stuff together for the moment.

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Reply #6 - Oct 25^th, 2003 at 12:28pm

JBaymore Offline
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Quote:

Before you go off screaming at me I would Like to tell you that I did read "Topic: dual sticks, throttles and rudders" and my question is different.

I would like to use the now not obsolete original Wingman and my now "replacement" sick for my "broken" friend of the same brand.

I realized I could fix the rudder problem and now I will have 2 joysticks...If I manage to fix the first.

WHat I would like to do is plug both joysticks at the same time to use in FS not as a CO-pilot thing as mentioned before but more as "extra buttons." THe thing is if I plug both at the same time, both joysticks have the same button assingnment. (eg. If I push either stick foreward, it will move the elevator) what I would like to do is push one stick foreward to move the elevator and one back to do something else, Like trim or something. Maybe like a program or some kind of tweak.

Anyone know of a way I could do that, or if it can be done what would be a good combination. Maybe one controls the plane while the other stick controls the gear flaps and trip. I know its unrealistic but that would kick @$$ kinda like controlling a robor... in a way

Randombeaner,

Hi.

From my experience with Win XP and two of another type of game input device (not Wingman) this should work just fine for you. Not too hard at all.

When you go into "Settings" in the sim and then go to the joysticks section..... you will find a little pull down box that lists all the game controllers you have installed in the sim. Select the one you want and then do whatever "change assignments" that you want to it. The asignments of one controller have no impact on the assignments to the OTHER. So you can even have two separate throttles if you want to. (Beware that such double controls can have some interesting "hiccups" when you go from using one to using the other. See one of the prior joystick posts on this "effect".)

If you want to use the other joystick for something like flaps, you probably will want to disable the centering action of that joystick. You'll need the full range of the potentiometer to have a full range of control on the flaps. Haven't taken one apart so I don't know how. YOu can also just remove the actual "stick" part,....... and control the variable potentiometers some other way.

It is a short step from what you are talking about and taking the darn second joystick right out of the existing housing and creating a small "console" to house some different buttons you add and also the stick controls....whether as the original "stick" or as other controls... like sliders or rotary knobs. (Rotary knobs work well for sort of reali-ish "trim" type controls.)

As to the buttons..... find where each existing switch connects on the printed circuit board..... there'll be two connections. "Break" the connections there........ pick up a "momentary contact" push button at a place like Radio Shack...... and using some hookup wire....attach it in place of the old switch. Mount it in a wooden or metal box and label the assigned function as appropriate.

Then you are on your way toward a simple "homebrew cockpit" Wink

.

best,

..................john

PS: I answered this down here in this thread to keep this kind of subject together here. If this "simulated cockpit" subject ever goes to a separate forum..... it would be nice to keep all this kind of discussion sort of together.

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Reply #7 - Oct 25^th, 2003 at 12:32pm

JBaymore Offline
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Quote:

ok thanks I didn't know they had diffrent assignments on fs9. THe stick is still in my attick and I havent checked it yet. I'll try it as soon as I can

Thanks

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Reply #8 - Oct 25^th, 2003 at 12:34pm

JBaymore Offline
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randombeaner,

No problem.

When you do get around to doing it..... please post a note down here in this thread and let us all know how you made out.

If you start making a small "panel"..... send a picture too.

BEst,

....................john

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