Seems i saw the plans for this idea i think it was at flightsim.com someone had done this and i think it was around 1500$ and thats computer and all.cant be for certain on that price its been awhile since i read it.but it looked pretty good what he had a 2 seater two and with the 3d glasses would probley be a nice setup and yes i have thought about doing some thing like this i have the know how and the tools to get it done but the little lady would have a hissy fit if i tried to build something like that in the house but i guess i could convert my dog house into one

But those 3d glasses would be cheaper and you would have the feeling of sitting in a real plane i would use the glasses at day time and with out glasses at night cause i am poor

Will,

The way this poll got moved around..... for a while I couldn't even FIND it  from the place I last left it .  But my glasses tend to caues me that problem too.

I would be interested in hearing more about your joystick to pedals conversion if you get the time.

As to my own project ideas...... I see about a year timetable to completion.... that is if it is ever really completed.  So this is not a fast thing by any means.  Right now it is in the planning stages and the research stages.

One thisng that I have found interesting in the research is that it appears that you can still do some interesting stuff using a cheap 10 Mbit / sec LAN with some pretty marginal low end machines driving parts of things.  Machines that a lot of people just dump or give away these days..... like a 300 to 500 M PII or III.

Anyway....... the cockpit idea for me will procees no matter whether the separate forum idea catches on or not.     I just thought it would be nice to gather all the messages and info in one neat "box".

Let's keep talking.

Oh... and I have a pretty neat "in flight emergency" situation that I have been working on since our last discussions on that subject.  It is an escalating situation that currently lasts about 10 minutes.  Still in development.

best,

..................john

I thought I would offset the load a little, and just for fun, decided on "You are out of your mind"

Now, this isn't my real vote, my real vote goes to yes. I would like to possible explore the idea.

Yeah, it's taken me a while to find this as well.  Either the mods aren't telling each other what they've moved or the forum is acting up a bit.

That emergency sounds great John. I tried that download that took severl hours with broadband.  It converted half of my text to italian (?) and doesn't seem to have done anything to increase realism.  Oh well...

For a lot of the existing controls I believe all that is required is an old key board and some DIY skills.

Let me explain.  Currently gear is mapped to the G key on my keyboard, If I was to build a switch /lever for my gear the electronic part that tells the flight sim what it is can come from a keyboard and be plugged in through the keyboard socket.

The various guages required are well outside my field of knowledge and my price range.

Will

Will,

Forgot to add something on the "glass cockpit" thing using FSUIPC and WideFS......

The extra computers "driving" the monitors that simulate the aircraft gauges don't have to be much of a machine at all.  They don't need a mouse, keyboard, sound, and so on.  Just a monitor, a basic VGA display card, and something like a PII or PIII running about 200-300 Mhz. 

Around here such machines are thrown out.  So the three or four extra computers that this might take to set up the cockpit that SOUNDS like an absurd expense...... will cost me little to nothing.   I already have two of the four that I expect that I will need fopr what I am planning hanging out in my closet collecting dust .

I'll think of it as cleaning out the attic  .

best,

............john

Will,

I will keep you posted on both the special effects stuff...... and on the homebrew cockpit developments.

Hey... check out the fighter cockpit that this guy built...... it is at his http://members.tripod.com/fcsimulator/ address.  Pretty realistic looking....plus a hydraulic canopy.     He's using the "glass cockpit" idea for some of his gauges in that one.

Just got the FSUIPC and WideFS licences installed and running on the home network correctly, and downloaded some freeware instrumentation stand alone gauge programs (sort of like those from Project Magenta ....but not payware).

They work GREAT so far!  This "glass" idea makes some things pretty simple.

So now in testing here, on a separate monitor on another (cheap) 300 Mhz PII PC, I can see any one of a number of complex guages running there.  And that gauge shown there meshes precisely in real time with the gauges in the default aircraft showing in FS2004.  Appears to be absolutely NO hit on framerates at all.

Just flew most of an instrument approach using ONLY the instruments shown on the OTHER PC screens (not looking at the FS2004 screen at all)........... and it worked great.  And that gauge is LARGE.... no more squinting at the regular screen when this is all set up.  On the FS2004 screen, the attitude indicator gauge might be 1 1/2" tall...... on the other monitor it is something like 9" tall.

So from the ease of this setup so far with the network and data exchange program...... I can see this happening for real.  It will be FAR easier in some aspects than I though initially.  And thanks for the keyboard hack idea.  I was thinking along those lines already..... but your suggestion helped to keep me on track with it.


best,

.....................john


PS:  It is amazing that this topic and poll can have about 114 views at this point....... and only 12 people bother ed to vote any preference.  I am assuming so far from that ... that there is not too much interest here in this idea.  Oh well.  Thought it would be a good addition to SimV..... so folks would not have to rely on info elsewhere.

What the heck is a Homebrew Cockpit?

Flyboy28,

If you go back a couple of messages in this thread... I posted a hot link to a pretty sophisticated one of a generic fighter jet.  That is a good indication of the types of things that some folks are doing.  Some are far less realistic... and some ar far MORE realistic.

The idea is to deal with the "suspension of disbelief".... just like what a director and an actor does in a good movie.  With the environment far more realistic...... and visual cue distractions from the outside world less...... you "fool" yourself more to think that the sim is "real".

There are even full 747 flightdecks.... sometimes invloving converting real aircraft parts and panels to sim use.  Soome people have a LOT of money to spend on this stuff  .  (I don't.)

So I am approaching this idea for as cheap as I can do it reasonably well..... over probably about a year's time ...plus or minus.

best,

...............john

Quote:


ROFLMAO

I just popped into this thread, out of curiosity.

It's something I've actually thought about.

I was at a 'reposession' auction about 6 months ago and saw a few of the old "Star Wars" type video game "Cockpit" type consoles. The one where you can sit inside it and there's a screen and a couple of buttons and speakers.

I thought to myself, some wizz at electronics or something could close it off, so there was a door that sealed you in on the open side with say, five computer screeens.
Positions of the screens (according to your usual FS format of views) from your left at 90 degrees on the number pad, 4, 7, 8, 9, 6,.
This would give an illusion of 'total simulator'.

If someone had the knowhow they could interface all the "bells and whistles" as you put it, in the form of a 'true' contol panel where you would operate manually, all the controls.

I couldn't do it. And five screens would be expensive. More if you wanted to add rear and rear-quarter views also.

A month later I saw that you can actually buy such a thing (with 3 screens, but it can be built on). I saw it on the Net. I'm not sure where, it was in a Sim site somewhere, in the form of a pop-up.

I'd love one. Especially a 'self contained' virtual and physical cockpit as I've explained.

From what I gather this is the sort of thing your'e talking about. Maybe not as eleborate or 'all sealed inside' like a large Simulator, but something similar.

If I was an electronics man I would be doing it now.
The old 'Star Wars' console, complete with padded seat and door on one side, went for $80-00. 

John,

This program that you have that outputs FS data to 3rd party programs.  Would it be capable of out putting Artificial horizon data to four heavy duty electric motors.  I have a cunning plan.....

Will

Forget Star Wars.  lol

I was looking at things for this type of project last week or earlier this week (it's sorta a blur...one of those weeks), and I found a Japanese video game called "Airline Pilot" that is  basically flight sim.  You sit in the game, obviously, and you've got three or four 29 inch monitors forming almost a full 180 degrees.

It was $6,000, which is why I don't already have it in my den, but the thought was VERY tempting.

If I could have justified a way to spend $6K on a game that works, only to tear it apart....lol

Excuse my ignorance, but what is a fresnel lens?

Will

Quote:


Will,

The program is called FSUIPC by Peter Dowson.  Up until fs2002 it was freeware.  It is now payware.  Bundled with something called WideFS (which allows the data to be shared across a LAN) to cost to buy/register it was about $35.  WELL worth it if you are headed down this kind of road  .

And Professor....... the fsuipc you mention for Arrestor Cables is the same program.  If you have the one for fs2002.... it won't work on fs2004.  But if you are planning on setting this up for flying in fs2002...... then you already have part of what you need for some of this.  You can get a freeware (older) version of WideFS on the net too.  (But the older version programs are not being supported now.)

Will..... Every variable that FS2004 generates is available in FSUIPC.  It would not output it directly.  You'd have to write a program to do that.  The FSUIPC SDK gives you all the data you need to figure out what is available and how to access it.  The SDK comes with C++ and VB6 source code examples for how to do some stuff.  The possibilities are AMAZING.... just time consuming  .

The data stream you need is there for the taking.  Your software project would then require that you take that info and output it to drive an I/O unit that controls a system that regulates the powwer to the heavy motors.

I assume that you are thinking "full motion"  ?

From looking around I think there are some I/O systems of various sorts already available to do this kind of stuff.  The question sort of is do you have time... or money  .

The trickies thing that I see I will have to construct is a four engine throttle quadrant with thrust reversers and such.  THAT will take some mechanical and electrical "engineering" to figure out.

best,

...............john

Andrew,

I agree that $30,000.00 on a home simulator is a little off the deep end  .  But this can be done at a much lesser level for a LOT less.

I intend to do it for as little as I can without sacrificing too much in the "experience" it creates .  Start removing zeros.  Expense so far....... $35.


best,

..............john

Quote:


Except it isn't a Virtual Cockpit, it's quite real 8)

Also Flyboy, the other BIG difference between what's being discussed here and the VC on your Sim now is this:

In you Sim, regardless of what 'view' you're in, you only see one 'view' at a time. If you want to look out the right window at the wing, you have to hit the No 6 key on your number pad (or whatever config you have).

What is being discussed, is having several monitors, each showing a different view (that you would normally select one at a time). These monitors surround you, and ideally, you could turn your head around and see the 'rear' view and the Zero up your bum, shooting at you, with little pieces of your plane falling off (If you were running CFS2 or 3) 

It would make for a Simulation that you couldn't even get at QANTAS or any other Airline Flight Simulator. Last time I checked they didn't have combat Simulators for their pilots (at least not WWII ones........lol) 

Quote:


LOL........

: ???  What about using a combination of the (virtual cockpit - VR Helment - Head tracker - and a touch screen) type solution for the chroniclly poor.  Also you might consider posting (Plans For Dummies) for cheap homemade rudder peddles, etc. when and if you run across them. I know very little on this subject as you can plainly tell, but I am highly interested if the prices don't  break the bank
                                                Fido

No, because it's not sim-specific.  You can build a pit with any version of F$.

Professor,

While multiple outside views are possible...... getting up to a full "Surround" situation is likely technically and cost wise pretty prohibitive.  But...... given enough money......  .........


I have been giving this visual stuff a lot of thought.  I now think that one really viable option to very much enhance the flight illusion with the LEAST hardware is to have a single large (21" +/-) CRT type monitor for the 12 o'clock view and then place a 15" (or larger) LCD monitor flush to the sim cockpit side windscreen/wall at the 9 or 10 o'clock position showing that view.  Then you would have that side monitor in the peripheral view when you are looking straight ahead at the main display.

So when you bank........ that "cue" from the side image will register in your brain..... and fool it more that the whole simulated plane is banking.  Not to mention if you look to the left out the "window" ...... you'll then see the matching appropriate "view".

While also adding the 2 o'clock view would be even better for the illusion....... my guess is that the one peripheral side alone will do it.  And that would allow you to utilize a more standard high end agp video card that already will drive two displays.... without resorting to a triple display card like the Matrox Parahelic.... or even more complex solutions.  Or to having to have a whole fleet of high end fast machines to utilize FSUIPC and WideFS and WideView to drive them for that purpose.

And then again I come back to what might be doable with the Fresnel lens with that 12 o'clock monitor to make that illusion better.  Hate to get into the idea of digital image projectors  .  Big $$$$$$.

So this doesn't have to involve multiple displays........ might just be a single 12 o'clock one......... but it COULD utilize multiples.  A lot depends on the budget.

best,

..................john

Hi all......

This post should really be another topic if this were a forum section:

Help with second joystick installation question

Can I install a second USB joystick unit and then map it's buttons to a set of different functions in the sim from the ones handled by the primary joystick?

Would this have to be the same brand of joystick to make it work?  Or would it be best if it were a DIFFERENT brand?

Am I right in assuming (bad idea  ) that a joystick with a throttle, pitch, bank, and twist (yaw) will have four analog position inputs?

I am hoping this is possible..... so that I can use those four analog inputs for ANOTHER use than is typical  .

best,

................john

Yes John, in answer to your question you can add a second USB device and map differant functions to the buttons.  At one point I had a joy pad and joystick attached.  Problem was I couldn't remember what the various buttons were supposed to do and I had to let go of the joystick (primary flight control) to grab the joy pad.

Will

Will,

Thanks for that information on connecting the second USB joystick.  I figured that might likely be possible..... since you can set up throttles, and yokes, and pedals all together.  But I wondered if there were some "caveats" about doing so.

What I am thinking with this question is this..........

Since I am modeling a generic "heavy" cockpit..... I will need a four engine throttle quadrant.  The switches (pushbuttons / toggles) for various functions such as fuel pumps and cuttoffs and such are easy and kinda' self explanatory.  But the REAL issue is the analog input of each throttle position.

If I can canibalize a joystick with four analog potentiometers, then a mechanical structure creating a fake throttle quadrant could be constructed and then I could connect those four pots (or four other ones of the same values) to the four levers that are the "throttles".

I can already sort of envision the general construction of such a unit.  Not too hard...... some wood for the boxy frame with rounded tops on the sides, some plastic for various parts like knobs, a sheet off plastic or metal for the slotted top cover, a little rubber sheet for the "gaskets" in the lever slots, some metal straps for the throttle handles and the axis shaft around which they pivot, and a bit of epoxy, screws, and filddlin'.

And the various switch functions that the joystick has can then also be assigned either to the "engine" switch type functions..... or reserved for OTHER controls in the cockpit.  This may be the way that I have to simulate the thrust reversers........ rather than the typical levers.  Maybe a little button on each throttle lever.....kinda' like the "overdrive" buttons on many automatic car transmission shifters (  ).  Not totally realistic.... but close.


Yeah...... the "remembering what is what" on generic unlabeled buttons is an issue.  But with the simulated cockpit setup....... you'll likely label each switch, the switches will stay in one place ( ), and eventually you will "know" your own cockpit layout much like you get to know the controls in your car after using it for a while.

best,

..............john

Maybe that cannibalisation will work for trim levers/wheels as well.  I think most cockpit gubbins could be made very cheaply indeed as the realism is inherant in the action taken to effect a change in the simulator.  If you remember the days before the throttle lever on the joystick you will know what I mean.  You used to have to hit the + key to increase thrust.  Suddenly you have a joystick with a throttle lever and the whole thing is more realistic.  Simply having a thottle quadrant will make the realism greater, even if the four levers are connected to just one control that controlls the four engines simultaneously.

Incidentally with the moving cockpit idea that I am working on I'd like to add some more thoughts.  I went on one of those fairground type flight sims today where you are enclosed in a capsule and the whole thing moves.  I got slightly air sick LMAO, and the thing never banked more than 20 degrees.  It is a question of sensory deprivation linked to the illusion of movement greater than what is actually happening.

Will

John, I did the same and mapped the throttle to joypad mini joysticks a few months ago, the problem with the set up is that the central setting of the mini stick equates to 50% forward.  It is very difficult trying to land or taxi with your engines running at 50% thrust - trust me.

Will

what about the reverse throttle used on the Jets? how will that be added to your design JBaymore? or would it be a simple adjustment of the potentiometers?

Will,

Thanks for that thought.  I always figured that the pedals would have some identifier of some sort that would allow Windows to ID them for their separate installation.  So that they may be the same brand.... but Win sees them "different".  But maybe not.  I am sure that shortly another Axispad FX will find it's way to my computer desk  .

As to the "electronics" business...........  oops..... sorry.  maybe this following will help a tiny bit:

"Ohms" is a unit measure of the resistance to the flow of electrons in an electrical circuit.  The term "K ohms" is one thousand ohms.  Something that impedes the flow of electrons in a circuit is called a "resistor".  A "potentiometer" (or "pot" for short) is a variable resistor.

A joystick uses two separate variable resistors (pots) to create a pair of resistance values that correlate to the position of the stick in the x and y axis.  So in computer terms you tend to think in terms of X and Y coordinates on the screen or in 3-d space.  But the joystick's initial input is actually analog in most cases....... it deals with voltages/current flow/resistance.  Then a circuit in the joystick converts those analog values into a digital representation that the computer can "see" and read. 

In many ways..... for the throttle type stuff..... we don't care HOW that analog signal gets converted.... just that it DOES.  THAT is the main reason for the gamepad in the first place.... it carries the "analog to digital" converter hardware and software.  That's basically what you are buying.

The throttle control on a joystick is just a slide potentiometer (resistor) of one sort or another.  Ditto the trim wheel if you have one.

Once you know the correct value of the potentiometer that a joystick uses.... which will be measured by the maximum resistance it will exhibit in "ohms"when fully to the end of its rotation or linear travel....... the circuit it is hooked to doesn't care if it is the original pot or another one of the same value located somewhere else.

So you could take a rotary potentiometer that has the same values as the original and hook it up so that when in the center position (just like the joystick was) it is mapped to "zero trim". Use wires to mount it sdeways with the knob protruding thru a slot in the main panel face next to the yoke.  Now it looks kinda' like a trim wheel too.  Turn the knob (wheel) attached to the pot one way.... and you move the nose up..... move the pot the other way and you move the nose down.  Simple.    So the trim wheel is a natural for adapting with butchering this little gamepad device.

If I weren't planning on a four engine throttle aircraft....... I could use the pots for one joystick as the throttles for two engines, one axis of the second mini joystick for the trim wheel, and the second axis of the second joystick for ........... hum......... something else that is "axis mapped" in the sim.  Not sure what right now.

best,

...........john

Vchat20,

I am not really sure about that yet.  I still have to figure out the logic and the mechanics of that system.   The current problem for me is the TO/GA switch.  I am not sure that can be realistically modeled in a simple fashion without more sophisticated electronics.  It may just have to work like the TOGA keypress in FS2004.

The thrust reverser levers sort of just "double" the number of potentiometers and mechanical hardware that you'd need, I think.  My question to myself is does it have to work EXACTLY like a real thrust reverser....... or is it enough for the simulation/realism factor to just have a real world switch/lever to move to actuate it?

I feel that there is a real tendency when you first think about this to want to make EVERYTHING an exact dupilcate of a real aircraft.  Then you realize the complexity and cost of that idea (see the f-15 cockpit above).  And you start to realize that if it is somewhat close....... that may be enough.  As Will said in a post a while ago........ just having a slide or twist control as a throttle made a HUGE impact in "realism" over pressing the + and - keys for a throttle.

And if you make the cockpit a duplicate of a real plane....... if you fly another plane in the sim....... it'll feel all wrong.  As it is, for me modeling a cockpit of a generic large jet...... if I decide to fly the C172........ my guess is that it will be kinda' weird  .

best,

..................john

Will,

The "glass" aspect of mine will be for the main flight instrument displays.  To do it, you just mount monitors on a shelf.  In front of the instrument display monitors is what will be the main "panel"..... a sheet of material with cutouts that match the size and shape of the gauges that are displayed on the monitor screens in smaller windows.  (Not one gauge per monitor.... multiple.)  So when you look at it........ it LOOKS like there is a bunch of illuminated gauges sitting there..... when in fact is is the monitors behind the panel mask.  It is amazing at how real that can look.... particluarly with aircraft that use many VDT's anyway.

Then you can ALSO mount real switches and such to the panel mask that hides the monitors.

Some change around with what is displayed on the monitors would be very easy.  And if the panel mask had NO other stuff mounted onto it..... then you could put it on with something like Velcro...... and change it out easily when you wanted to "change planes".  Great idea there!

But the layout of a large jet cockpit is FAR different than the layout of something like a Cessna 172.  That whole center console alone would be an issue  .

Yeah... I suppose you could make that modular too.  Lift it in and out and sub another unit.  But what a pain to be taking the simulator apart all the time.

I guess the "werid" C172 feeling in the "heavy" cockpit with the center console, the large overhead panel, and all the switches and gauges might not be as far from "reality" as sitting at a desk pushing keys on a computer.  Might still feel more like a plane.  It will be interesting to see how I feel about that situation once this whole project of mine is completed.  At the moment I tend to fly mainly large multi-engine jets...... the smallest maybe the default Lear.

The simulator cockpit certainly won't feel like "military"  .  Except maybe a KC-135 or something.

My current working plans in the CAD program fit this whole thing into a footprint exactly 5 feet wide by five feet deep.  Took a LOT of planning to get it down to that  .  That was a primary design goal for me.  That is all the space I can "steal" here in the house reasonably. 

Junker car bucket seat for the pilot's chair, three 15" monitors for the glass cockpit part, and starting out with one monitor for the exterior view...... eventually going up to three.  A active center console with throttle quadrant, and an active overhead console.  Cockpit modeled up to about the centerline just to the copilot's side edge of the center console.

Still very much in learning and planning mode.

Did you check out that F-15 site I listed a couple of posts ago?

best,

.................john

That F-15 site is awsome, I would prefer something more generic and a good deal cheaper though.  My current problem is one of space, I live in a 2 bed flat so there isn't really space for my computer, let alone a cockpit or flight deck set up.  The modular idea came from an idea I had a few months ago to replace the keyboard with a "panel" of switches and lights etc but no guages.  My plan was to use an old keyboard as we've already discussed and work around that.  I thought that for differant aircraft Icould have differant bits to do the various functions and the modular idea was born.  Unfortunately I'm more of a thinker than a doer and the plans are still in my head

I'll get around to it one day.

Will

First Test of Throttle Quadrant Construction

Spent some time this evening taking one of the numerous designs I've been playing with off of "paper" in the CAD program and trying to turn it into a real 3-D rendition of some sort  .

Here is an image of the VERY unfinished four engine throttle quadrant idea for my developing simulated cockpit design. 

It is set in width to coordinate with the width of the GoFlight panel mount instruments (7 1/4").......... so that it will align well with them if it is mounted in a "rack" that also holds some of them.  It is 9" long.  The flat section just to the rear of the rounded part will hold a few switches that will be mapped to engine control functions.

This is still VERY early in the design revision stage..... some changes will still be made to even the basics.  But this now gives me a "feel" for the idea.

Will,

Thanks.  I can sort of envision what it will look like when it is finished at this point.  The main housing will be a grey that I will use for the background of the whole cockpit, the lever arms will be black, and the knobs will be white with numbers.  The screws will be painted but exposed.  That grey background will allow me to use black lettering for all the instrument labels in the cockpit.

At one point I was thinking that I wanted to be able to backlight all the control text labling.  Figured I'd use acrylic plastic for all the panel facings and such and then use computer graphic flim on the back of them to give the color....with the lettering itself in a clear so that light would show thru.  Then pop a bulb behind it and voila..... backlighting.  Then I realized all the technical problems and time consumption with that whole idea...... and decided that trying to do that would be NUTS .

Instead, I'll just install some oblique panel lights on the face of the panels.

I understand the "string" thing.  The mechanical linkages are the real trick in all this.    It helps to have ripped apart a few things when you are a kid. 


Yeah... please put a picture or two of your own efforts up.  I'll be interested in seing your pedal design.  I'll keep doing the same.

Maybe we can stimulate some others to try their hand at this kind of stuff  . 


best,

...................john

PS:  I am worried that this discussion thread is getting "lost" down here and with the current title   .

Has anyone taken the force feedback circuit control output from a FF joystick and adapted it to drive other larger servomotors? 

I imagine that the output direct in the stick device itself is driving just about the maximum amperage that it can drive....so direct connection is likely not a possibility.  But with the right interface circuit..... it should be able to drive larger servos to match the forces it delivers to the joystick.

I am having an idea about putting some more tactile feedback into the flight experience ....... possibly affecting the pilots seat  .  Full motion of the whole simulated cockpit is getting a bit much for my skills and budget, I think

best,

..................john

John,

Whilst I agree with many of the points that you have raised I still feel that Hardware is the most appropriate forum as the net result is a large piece of hardware.  Yes it does require software to run it but this can be likened to drivers, if I was a new member looking for info on a homebrew cockpit I'd probably look first in the homebrew section (*hint hint) and then in the hardware section if it wasn't there.

Anyway here are some pictures of my rudder pedals.  They are not my design but rather a copy (and I feel enhancement) of a set I found, I'll do a search and reference it later.

1)  This one shows the basic construction and string I was talking about.  The base joystick (Logitech Wingman) has been stripped and screwed firmly to the base board.  String runns from near the tips of the pedals through the brackets to the joystick.  The lengths of drinking straw act as "lubrication"



2) This is to show the gate hinges that I used as the actual pedals.  The lengths of wood are essential as strengtheners, just the weight of your feet resting on the pedals will bend the hinges in no time.


3) This shows that the joystick is deflected when one pedal is depressed. (ie the darn thing works!)


Refinements required are the finishing work (ie painting and sanding of rough edges.  The joystick needs enclosing in a box and the wires need protection.  The string also needs replacing with bicycle brake or gear wire for more positive control.

As you see them the pedals cost me about £5, and that was the cost of the hinges which was the only item that I didn't have in the shed.

Will,

Is that a USB joystick... or one connected to the game port?

Is your main joystick USB or game port?

What OS are you running?

Thanks.

best,

................john

John,

In my usual "Heath-Robinson" way of doing things I have discovered the need for a number of cogs to use as reduction gear for trim wheels etc.  I am currently planning to use Lego or Meccano, both of which are relatively cheap and tough - they're built to outlast children after all.  If this does not prove viable can you suggest another source?  I'm out of ideas here, clocks would be far too flimsy.

Will

I'm having a very pleasant afternoon tinkering with them, in a minute I'm going to go out and get myself a soldering iron and other gubbins from a hardware shop so that I can lengthen the wires and hopefully replace the little switches.

I made an error, I have only four switches(buttons) but the current plan is to use the old y axis pot for elevator trim or throttle. 

Button 1 is landing gear, 2 will be flaps down, 3 flaps up and 4 ATC toggle.

I think I will use the pot for elevator trim as it is surprisingly easy to balance rudders when you use your feet.

The set-up will therefore be:

Controller 1 - Joystick Elevators and Ailerons X+Y axes

Button 1 Brakes
Button 2 Enrich mixture
Button 3 Lean mixture
Button 4 Coarse Prop
Button 5 Finer Prop
Button 6 Knee pad
Button 7 Auto pilot toggle

Throttle slider Throttle

Controller 2

X axis Rudder
Y axis Elevator trim

Button 1 Gear
Button 2 + 3 Flaps
Button 4 ATC Toggle.

This is by no means a homebrew cockpit but it is a start.  I have a thrustmaster joy pad with ten buttons and 4 pots which I plan to cannabalise for parts, I also have an old keyboard somewhere that will give me a further 60 odd available buttons for a "flight console".

I'll take photo's and keep you updated. 

The next step is to build a control yoke and throttle quadrant like yours as these are all things that can be stored in boxes in the attic and brought out whenever I wish to use them, space constraints you understand.

Will

Ripping Into an Axispad FX Joypad  -(corrected)-


(See prior posts in this thread to understand what this unit will be used for.)

I took a few minutes today and started ripping apart the Axispad FX gamepad for conversion to part of a simulated cockpit setup.  Easy disassembly of the main part with about six small screws holding everything.  Then the whole thing just kind of "falls apart".  Watch out for the plastic switch buttonns.... some just fly away.

It is not exactly assembled to ISO 9000 standards  .  But then again...... it was only $17.88 at Walmart.  Wires are minimally soldered on and such.  It is not "fragile".... but I wouldn't treat it too rough until you stabilize things and get a feel for what is vulnerable to mechanical movements.

Unfortunately... the mini-joysticks are WELL soldered in place.  Tried using a vacume "solder sucker" tool to unsolder it.... but that didn't work too well.  Too many solder points to clear out too well to free it.  There are four large "mounting" solder points at the corners of the stick, three normal connections on each of the two attached tiny potentiometers, and four connections on the switch that is also attached to the joystick (for when you press down).

I finally decided to use a dremel mini extra thin cutoff wheel and cut the darn joystick connections wherever I could reach them with that tool.  That careful grinding got it off on 2 1/2 sides.  A little gentle wiggling and some judicious prying and metal fatigue got the remaining few points to just break ... and off it came.  While I couldn't figure out a way to save the joystick itself for re-use..... the circuit board and traces came through this scary operation fine.  I then used the solder sucker tool and unsoldered the remaining tiny pieces of the connections.... leaving holes to reconnect the new wires I'll add onto.

I figured out the basic wiring "schematic" for the joystick and the attached switch....so I know where to hook up the new things that will get added.  I also now know that the potentiometers are 10.3 K ohms , center tapped, and appear to be a linear taper (as opposed to audio taper).  (The type of taper refers to how the resistance changes along the travel of the pot.)  The center tap serves as the main control function....... going from 0 ohms to 10.3 K ohms across the full movement of the joystick.

So the next test is to get a couple of readily available 10.0K linear pots and hook them up and see if they work.  10.0K pots are common...... 10.3K are not.  I am hoping one of two things:

That the reading of 10.3 K ohms instead of 10.0K was the "tolerance" of the potentiometer (plus or minus X percent).  Or that the 10.3K reading was the inaccuracy of the cheap-ish multimeter that I used to test them.  Additionally..... when the thing is set up it should be possible to calibrate the joystick sensitivity in Windows.... so that should fix the .3K ohms difference.... I hope.  

I have shot pictures of the gamepad insides as I am doing this ......... and close ups of the unmounted circuit board.  I will eventually post annotated pictures and a parts layout diagram here for anyone else following this discussion and trying this conversion themselves.

(BTW... if you are following this thread ....  please post a message and let everyone know that you are.)

So... more later when I try some more things out with this.  Off in search of 10.0K linear slide potentiometers.  


best,

....................john

PS:  This version of the posting was corrected.... the value of the potentiometer is 10.3 K ohms... not 103 K ohms as was previously stated.  My apologies.   

I guess it depends on how much you use your spoliers John.  It's your design after all.  If you have a USB splitter you could use the pots for every available function by sacrificing two or three game pads.

Will

Will,

Hi.

I really don't understand the full use of a "variable spoiler" for flight yet.  When I tested it ....... (one aircraft only) the spoilers STILL seemed to only go to one position.... not to less deployed / more deployed states.  Seemed to be either full on or full off.  So if that is always true with all aircraft....... it would be a waste of an axis.... 'cause two switches would do just fine for the same thing.

I definately already DO plan on chopping up at least two Axispad FX gamepads.  That gives me 8 joystick axis functions to reassign.  Four will go to engine throttles.  One will go to elevator trim and one will go to flaps.  That part is a "no brainer".

The real question for me now is about the remaining two pots and also whether I want to rip into a THIRD joypad  ??? ? If I only have two more axis to go.... where are they BEST utilized?

Now that I have the process kinda' figured out...... ripping up the second and third ones will not take anywhere near so long.  A lot of the time in doing this first one was spent in just looking and thinking.   The old "measure twice...cut once" adage

I also realized that in addition to the control pots.... I can wire in one or more microswitches that can maybe light panel lights to indicate some action or state.  So a pot may wire into the gamepad to tell the sim what to do.... like deploy spoilers....... but a microswitch at the end of the lever's travel could also send 12V DC power to an indicator LED or bulb to say that the lever is in the "full" or "closed" positions.  This idea opens up some more "realism" options.

I'm gonna' be investing in a bunch of wire ties before this is done      .

best,

...............john

Copy of related topic post from "Hardware" section

Quote:


BaileyGirl,

Hi and welcome to SimV.

I am working on a simulated cockpit project also.

The answer is yes..... with some "possibly difficult to construct"  caveats.

In a real world dual setup the physical movements of both the rudder pedals and the yoke would be "mirrored" to the other position.  If the captain turned the yoke to the right.... the first officers yoke would also pivot to the right.  Pitch down on one and the other moves forward too.  To model this type of exact behavior requires a lot of either mechanical linkage or servomotors to be driving things.

Constructing a mechanical yoke system is not all that difficult if you are handy with tools and mechanical design.......... just kinda "fussy" and time consuming and likely a bit on the "pricey side" when all is said and done.  There are a couple of companies that sell such "real" looking and functioning large jet yokes..... but unless you are willing to go about $600 per station......... you'd best be thinking of how to do it yourself.

Cable linkages under the raised floor of the simulated cockpit are the usual route for this setup.  Gets into a bunch of pulleys and gears and it translates the movement of both sticks into the movement of just a set of two linear or slide potentiometers (like volume controls) that are interfaced into the sim the same way a joystick is.  In fact you can canibalize a joystick for the interface card electronics and then just re-use the potentiometers in a new location if your design matches.  Or use different potentiometers (also called "pots") that are of the same resistance value.

If you just want "dual controls" and can do without the matching motion feedback part of things ......... you can just connect two USB joysticks, for example.  Whichever one is "touched" in any way (moved) then suddenly takes flight control priority.  Ditto throttle controlls, and ditto pedals.  Any USB controller tends to work this way.

The problem with this setup, aside from the lack of motion feedback, is that when the second control is
moved, then whatever "setting" the first control was at is suddenly overridden.  This can result in some really jerky transitions of control.  For examople if the throttle at the captain's position was at 90 percent.... and then the co-pilot touched the throttle at his/her side and it was initially starting at an idle setting..... the engines would, for an instant, drop from 90 percent to idle...and then spool back up to whatever setting the co-pilot then had set.

Since you are interested in "Simulated Homebrew Cockpits" you might want to go down to the "General" Section of the forums and check out the thread there that is about this very subject.  It is possible that a forum section for this exact subject may get set up if there is enough demonstrated interest.  Please vote in the little "survey" if you haven't already.

There is a picture or two down there of the ongoing construction of my new throttle quadrant.  It might give you some ideas. It is not including servomotor feedback so that things like autothrottle will itself move the position of the throttles.... although that is doable (requires some expensive electronics starting with an EPIC interface card).  It is set up to control four engines, spoilers, and flaps.

I am posting a copy of this message down in that thread also...... to keep the "cockpit topic" running all together in one place at least for now ..........until we see if "the powers that be" will grant forum status to this concept.

Welcome to the "oddball" world of building a home simulator  .


best,

....................john

Ripping Into An AxisPad FX Gamepad

I am continuing working on using the Axispad FX gamepad as the basis for a USB "interface card" to utilize the multiple buttons and the double joysticks it contains for mapping to other functions.  (See earlier posts in this thread.)

I now have all the wiring connections soldered in place on the gamepad circuitboard itself.  The next step is to mount the Axispad circuit board onto another piece of perf board for stability, and then to hook the various wires onto connectors that will serve to easily hook up the controls that will be located in the simulated cockpit.

Mechanically these "surface solder connections" are NOT the best and most stable way to connect things.  But this circuit board is double sided ...so drilling a little hole at each solder location is not possible.  So getting the whole thing as rigid as possible as soon as possible is a good idea.

Here in photo #1 is the Axispad FX with the top cover removed before I have done too much to it.  On the right side, the rubberized plastic button covers have been removed showing the copper trace contacts that the conductive material that is on the back side of the rubberized button sheet makes contact with.  It is onto these traces that you need to solder new wires to remote the closure connection out to other buttons located on your panels.

I am not sure what I will be doing with the outputs for the two force feedback vibration motors.  Their use intrigues me.... and I may see what can be done with them.  I have to figure out what command in the sim would cause them to activate.  I expect it will be in the aircraft.cfg file under the force feedback section...... but I don't know anything about that yet.  Any thoughts anyone  ???.  More on that research MUCH later.

Photo #1

Here below in photo #2 is more of a close-up of the circuit board before I have added new wiring.  The left joystick is already removed.  You can see that some of the switch traces have contacts that are pretty simple to solder onto..... big flat planes of polished copper.  Some however... like buttons 1-4 in the upper right and also the "mode button" in the center bottom...... have little tiny "fingers" of copper traces that intermesh.  These take some really careful work.  On some of them I used an exacto knife and cut some of the "fingers" to make the soldering easier to do.

Some of the buttons activate by bringing the hot side to "ground".  So for these buttons you only need one lead.... and use a common "ground" connection for the other lead.  So that is why you don't see "pairs" of leads coming off each button point on the circuit board.  Some buttons do NOT work this way so they have two leads.  The top hat buttons are like this.... and each "pair" of buttons has a separate second lead.  So if you look close at the last picture, you'll see four red wires on the tophat button section....and only two black wires.

Buttons number 9 and 10 (not seen) seem to have four contact points on the pc board...... but in reality only two of them for each switch are actually connected to anything if you study the traces.  If you look at the last picture... you can clearly see the two wires connected at the diagonal corners of button number 9's position.

On the pot connections where the joysticks used to be, the two end holes on the pc board of each set of three holes see the full 10K ohm constant resistance of the potentiometer.  The center hole is where the variable resistance is "read".  The color coding on the pots is red, black, green wires.....with the black being the center variable connection.

Photo #2

In this last shot all of the added wiring in now soldered into place.  The wires are sort of now grouped into four "sections".  The top left and right are bundles of what will be various control buttons.  The lower left is the two axis connections for one joystick ....which are now really just "analog inputs" onto which I can now attach 10 K potentiometers.  The lower right side is the two axis connections for the other joystick.

In the center bottom is the switch connection for the "mode" button.  The Axispad needs to be set to the analog mode to activate the joysticks.  Haven't figured out how to "bypass" this needed keypress.  So that button will have to be on the "checklist"  .  At the top are two buttons for "Escape" and "Enter".  At the moment I don't plan to use them so no wires are soldered onto them.  The USB connector that already came on the gamepad is located in the center top.

You'll also notice that the contact covers on the "enter" and "escape" buttons have been removed in the last picture.  So now they are not really push button switches anymore.  Now they are just little "bullseye" circuit board traces.

Photo #3

So canibalizing one Axispad FX gamepad gets you 14 buttons and four joystick 10K analog inputs to locate onto a simulated cockpit.

So there you have an update on my work on this conversion so far.  Hopefully these pictures will be useful if you are planning on trying this modification too....or even one sort of like it. 

I'll keep this info coming as it develops.  I'm having fun  so far .


best,

.................john

Thanks for the input.  I for one will look into this site/ring you mention.  All my plans are on hold at the moment due to a nasty stretch of night shifts.

Will

First Piece of Cockpit Structure Constructed

I wasn't up to doing any "fussy" wiring type stuff....... and I am waiting for some 10K ohm slide potentiometers to arrive anyway.... so I thought I'd take a couple of hours and tackle the first item for the construction of the cockpit structure itself.

The first section I decided to build for this project is the "shelf" unit that will sit directly behind the center console structure.  All of the design work for the simulated cockpit has been worked out in a CAD program.... so all the dimensional stuff has been resolved there.  Dimensions were lifted directly from that drawing and translated to the real wood parts.

This shelf unit will hold a single "glass cockpit" video monitor at a 15 degree upward angle, will support the right side of the main panel facing tipped at a 15 degree angle, will serve as the support for the glareshield unit that will sit on top of it, and then be topped by one of the exterior display monitors.  The sizing of the various components has been designed so that the center of the exterior view display monitor lines up with my eye level when seated in the pilot's chair.

The monitor located on the middle shelf of this unit will display the engine management instruments.  There is room underneath at the floor leve l to hold two tower style PC's.

It is constructed out of two thicknesses of medium density fiberboard....... 3/4" for the two upright sides..... and 1/2" for the shelves themselves.  The span is so short that I do not think I need a brace under the center of the shelf that holds the monitors.... but if neccessary I will add a piece of 2" x 2" pine across the middle.  Small pieces of pine are used to secure the fiberboard, utilizing screws and glue on all joints.

The holes in the various sections are cut using a standard holesaw in a hand drill.  These are to be utilized as pass-throughs for any necessary wiring.

Photo #1



This shot shows the use of Elmer's Glue in addition to screws for making the structure rigid.  MD fiberboard is weird stuff.  It tends to want to "rip apart" if you put too much stress on it.  The glue helps.  The wood strips are used to allow you to screw into the face of the fiberboard...... not drill into the edges.


Photo #2



Here you can see the center monitor shelf screwed securely to the pine furring strip that has been itself screwed to the side upright piece.  Again, glue was used for all joints.  The narrow board at the botton serves to stabilize the lower rear "legs" of the shelf.  The front does not get any, since PC CPU's will get placed in here.  The center console will locate directly in front of this part too.

Photo #3



Here is one view of the completed first shelf unit. 



Photo #4




Here is a second view of the same unit.  The location of most holes for the wiring can be seen.

None of this structure will be visible from the cockpit.  It will all be hidden behind the main panel facing, the center console, and the glareshield.

So....... get out your carpentry tools and join me folks  .  About $12 USD of wood and screws and glue and 2 hours of time.


best,

................john

Thanks Will. 

I may get another couple of hours tonight to tackle starting the next cockpit section.  Next part of the cockpit itself to make is the center console.  That will be a litle more complex... but not much.

The problem is that I am trying to cram in one more VDT down there (  ) in the center console for a FMC or a radar display.  The logical place it should go puts it on the slanted part right next to where the center console butts up against the main panel facing.  But I can't put my hands on something like a 7" or 9" dirt cheap monitor right now.  I've got a small monochrome one that has a 7 3/4" x 10 1/4" screen... in a 11 1/2" x 13" "box".  But that size puts the font edge of the throttle quadrant back about 13" from the panel face.  I am thinking that is a little too far back for comfort for the right arm to conveniently reach it.

The real time consuming stuff with all of this will come when I have to do the wiring for all the switches and stuff. 

You off your night shift thing yet?

best,

....................john