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Fighter Aces (Read 848 times)
Sep 28th, 2003 at 3:38am

Professor Brensec   Offline
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I've just finished reading a short biography of Erich Hartmanns career in WWII. http://www.2worldwar2.com/erich-hartmann.htm

Amazing achievement. He didn't start until his first mission on 14th Oct 1942, at age 20. Yet in just over two and a half years, racked up 352 victories. most were Russian, yet there were at least 5 x P51D's.

His entire career was on the Russian front. It's a pretty 'inglorious' ending to such an extraordinary career at such a young age, that he was taken prisoner on the last day of the war and spent 10 years in a Russian hard labour Camp.

Although Germany were the aggressor and clearly responsible for some terrible atrocities, of which there is no need to go into, I can't see the reasoning behind the Russians imprisoning so many of the 'simple soldiers' without trial or justifiable cause, other than revenge for the admittedly terrible cost to Russia, of the war.

Anyway, on a little brighter note, who is you favourite Ace, or Ace of choice? The one you consider to be the one which should enjoy your personal 'veneration' (for want of a better word). And of course, why?
 
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Reply #1 - Sep 28th, 2003 at 4:43am

ozzy72   Offline
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Hmm tough one. Maybe Sailor Malan...

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Reply #2 - Sep 28th, 2003 at 6:25am

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My "hero" if you like is james Edgar "Johnnie" Johnson, Britains top Spitfire ace with some 38 confirmed victories.
I once had the great honour to meet Jonnie at Duxford.
I've met a few of my heros over the years apart from Jonnie, including Alex Henshaw, Spitfire test pilot, Bob Morgan, Memphis Belle pilot, "Bud" Anderson, P-51 ace and the most recent was Germanys third ace Gunther Rall.
I always try to meet the old aces whenever I get the chance, if only for a quick hand shake. I know Hagar has met a few and I'm sure he will agree with me when I say it is always a great honour.
« Last Edit: Sep 28th, 2003 at 1:11pm by HawkerTempest5 »  
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Reply #3 - Sep 28th, 2003 at 8:20am

Hagar   Offline
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Couldn't agree more Tempest.  I think it's well-known around here that my all-time hero is Neville Duke whom I've had the pleasure & honour of meeting on 2 occasions.

This is also an impossible question to answer. Preferences & opinions will be biased to some extent by all-round knowledge & national pride. Famous pilots & war heros are relatively unknown outside their own countries.

Quote:
Squadron Leader Neville Duke DSO DFC*

Joining the RAF at the start of the war, he found himself in 1941 with 92 Squadron at RAF Biggin Hill.  That spring and summer he survived the air battles over Northern France with the Biggin Hill Wing, often flying as wingman to the famous and legendary 'Sailor' Malan - Fighter Command's top-scoring pilot at that time.  In those months he learnt the fighter pilot's trade, lessons that were to prove invaluable when, in November, he was posted to a very different air war in the Western Desert.

Flying the famous 'Shark Mouthed' P40E Tomahawk (?) fighters, he quickly established himself as one of the most successful pilots in North Africa, winning the DFC and bar.  By 1943 he was a flight commander with his old squadron, 92, which had also become part of the Desert Air Force.

Again flying Spitfires, he had scored twenty-one by the end of the Tunisian Campaign, was awarded the DSO, then given command of 145 Spitfire Squadron in Italy.  Leading this unit in the summer of 1944 he brought his score to twenty-eight, receiving a second bar to his DFC.

After the war Neville joined Hawkers as a test pilot, becoming Chief Test Pilot in 1951. On 7 September, 1953, he captured the World Air Speed record flying his famous all red Hawker Hunter at 727.63 mph.


I copied his quote on Millennium Moments from the Jan 2000  issue of Aeroplane monthly.
Quote:
Personal "most memorable" must be the war years - retained with great clarity & recall. I'll not bore you with war stories, but Otto Schulz(e) (Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross) with 51 victories & an Experten of JG57 is at the top of my World War Two databank.
http://www.making-history.ca/Features/MB/Axis/Schulz/Otto_Schulz.htm
« Last Edit: Sep 28th, 2003 at 11:42am by Hagar »  
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Reply #4 - Sep 28th, 2003 at 8:54am
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mr. hartmann is one of my favourite aces,because his achievement during the war is just incredible. i think he even got captured a few times by the russians,but he always managed to escape. either this guy knew what he did,or he was just terribly lucky. my other favourite aces are marseille, galland and lacey.
 
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Reply #5 - Sep 28th, 2003 at 8:55am

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In consideration of his other lifetime aviation achievements, I've got to go with Charles Yeager for the American aces (at least the one I admire most).

For British aces, no question it's Douglas Bader.
 
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Reply #6 - Sep 28th, 2003 at 9:01am

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My vote goes to Major Richard Bong, he scored all 40 of his victories flying a P-38 in the Pacific Theatre.  I maybe prejudice, my dad flew B-24's in the Pacific and, maybe just maybe, the Major destroyed someone who, if not for him, might have shot down my dad.  As for the British, how about  Douglas Bader, maybe not the best, but surely one of the most tenacious.
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Reply #7 - Sep 28th, 2003 at 9:31am

Hagar   Offline
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No question that Douglas Bader was an outstanding pilot even with those tin legs. From what I've read he was bad tempered (probably as a result of constant pain) & not particularly popular in some quarters. He was certainly tenacious. His "Big Wing" theory is still controversial today. On the few occasions it was tried, it took so long to assemble the big wing that the opportunity was lost & the enemy long since departed for home. Some people blame Bader & others like him for the disgraceful treatment of Fighter Command leaders Air Chief Marshal Dowding & Air Vice Marshal Park after the BoB. Both disagreed with his theories which were unproven.

Here's a list of the top scoring RAF aces. See how many you've ever heard of.

Top British Aces
James "Johnnie" Johnson  38.0  top WWII British ace, flew Spitfires 
Brendon E. Finucane  32.0  Irish, 65 Sqn, later KIA
Robert Braham  29.0  POW June '44, night fighter, 3DSO, 3DSC 
Robert Stanford Tuck  29.0  2+ years as POW, 92 & 257 Sqns 
F. R. Carey  28.0  43 Sqn
J. H. "Ginger" Lacey  28.0  Hawker Hurricane pilot, 501 Sqn
Neville. F. Duke  28.0   
E. G. Lock  25.0   
B. Drake  24.5  213 Sqn
G. Allard  23.8  85 Sqn, KIA
Douglas Bader  22.5   
 
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Reply #8 - Sep 28th, 2003 at 10:24am

Professor Brensec   Offline
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Certaianly again, Bader must go down as the most committed and perservering pilot to ever hold a joystick. I've read Brickhill's "Reach for the Sky" and ther's no mention of bad tempers, but then there wouldn't be, would there. He certainly was a tenacious fella'. Wink

As for his demeanour, well....I can understand the constant pain bit, it can make you like a bear with a sore head some times. It's like someone constantly digging something into whatever part of your body aches. You just have a need to growl at someone or something............but anyway.

I thought the 'Big Wing' caper was Lee Mallory's. At least that's the impression given in the Movie BoB. (Although we all know how accurate Movies are, even Pommy ones.............lol Grin Wink)

Australias highest scoring Ace is Clive Caldwell, with I think, 22. I don't think anyone knows who he is or was. I've never seen a book on him, although I'm sure there must be one or two.

I never learnt about him at school, although we learnt about Fogarty Fegan and the likes of him in the Pacific War (A naval hero that was beheaded by the Japanese - a great honour apparently!).

So I suppose it must have to do with the fact that the BoB, although it involved many Australians, and both our existing Divisions were in Africa at the time, it was still a long way away and not of much concern locally. ???

But Hagar, how would this Duke fella' like going rom Spits to a P40? (even though it is my favourite fighter and it was also faster at the time Tongue Tongue)
 
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Reply #9 - Sep 28th, 2003 at 10:31am

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Adolf Galland, Eric Hartman  or Jonnie Jhonson
 
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Reply #10 - Sep 28th, 2003 at 11:06am

Hagar   Offline
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By the same token I know little about very few American or Axis aces.

Quote:
I thought the 'Big Wing' caper was Lee Mallory's. At least that's the impression given in the Movie BoB. (Although we all know how accurate Movies are, even Pommy ones.............lol  )

I think the original idea is generally attributed to Bader. Leigh-Mallory certainly agreed with him & was the prime mover in ousting Dowding & Park. His motives were obvious - replacing Dowding as leader of Fighter Command. He was at best incompetent & certainly no hero of mine. On Dowding's death, Churchill admitted the whole episode had been a mistake. Roll Eyes

Quote:
During the Battle of Britain Leigh-Mallory came into conflict with Vice Marshal Keith Park, the commander of No. 11 Fighter Group. Park, who was responsible for the main approaches south-east of London, took the brunt of the early attacks by the Luftwaffe. Park complained that No. 12 Fighter Group should have done more to protect the air bases in his area instead of going off hunting for German planes to shoot down.

Leigh-Mallory was also critical of the tactics of Park and Hugh Dowding, head of Fighter Command. He took the view that RAF fighters should be sent out to meet the German planes before they reached Britain. Park and Dowding rejected this strategy as being too dangerous and argued it would increase the number of pilots being killed.

Air Chief Marshal Charles Portal, the new chief of the air staff, agreed with Leigh-Mallory, and in November 1941, removed Keith Park and Hugh Dowding from their posts. Leigh-Mallory had the added satisfaction of taking over from Park as commander of No. 11 Fighter Group.

In November, 1942, Leigh-Mollary replaced Sholto Douglas as head of Fighter Command. He was knighted in January, 1943 and later that year became commander of the Allied Expeditionary Air Forces for the proposed Normandy invasion. His attempts to control the strategic bombing campaign leading up to the invasion brought him into conflict with Arthur Harris and Carl Spaatz. After pressure from General Dwight D. Eisenhower, Leigh-Mallory was forced to resign.

Leigh-Mallory was now appointed Commander in Chief of Southeast Asia. Trafford Leigh-Mallory was killed on his way to Burma when the aircraft he was travelling in crashed on 14th November, 1944.


Quote:
But Hagar, how would this Duke fella' like going rom Spits to a P40? (even though it is my favourite fighter and it was also faster at the time  )

I understood the P-40 was replaced by the Spitfire Mk Vb Trop. This was in turn replaced by the Spit Mk VIII when it became available. "That fella Duke" flew all 3 types during 3 separate tours of duty in North Africa.

Quote:
I also asked him how many MKs of Spitfire he had flown and what was his favourite, he replied that the MK VIII was the sweetest of them all

http://command.warbirds.org/Real_Life/Tangmere/Untitled/untitled.html
If we ever meet again I'll ask him what he thinks of CFS2. Wink
 
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Reply #11 - Sep 28th, 2003 at 11:11am

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Bong, Gabby, Johnson, Yeager, or Goebel.

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Reply #12 - Sep 28th, 2003 at 12:08pm

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Bader's name is the first that came to mind, when I saw the title of this thread. I don't know about temper either, but I don't think "common sense" was always one of his stronger virtues! "Not all of his flying was regulation. Sometimes on solo flights, Bader would climb out of the cockpit in midair, straddle the fuselage and tie a handkerchief around the control stick in  the front cockpit, all without a parachute." fr. WWII Air War NHS. The loss of his legs was his own doing. A combination of inexperience and alcohol. And his first act as a newly appointed Flight Commander, was to crash his Spitfire on takeoff!
In auto an motorcycle racing, it's not always the man that posts the fastest lap, that wins the race. I think the same holds true for Aces. I don't know if he was the BEST, but certainly the most tenacious!
Another pilot with similar qualities, would be "Pappy" Boyington. I'm going with him as my favorite. Because he was a Marine( I'm a former Marine), he's American(just rooting for the home team), and because he flew with the AVG(the "Flying Tigers" need I say more!). Smiley
 
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Reply #13 - Sep 28th, 2003 at 12:44pm

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Quote:
Another pilot with similar qualities, would be "Pappy" Boyington. I'm going with him as my favorite. Because he was a Marine( I'm a former Marine), he's American(just rooting for the home team), and because he flew with the AVG(the "Flying Tigers" need I say more!). Smiley

Greg "Pappy" Boyington is another of my "heroes". I think his reputation as a bit of a rebel makes him an interesting character. However the Pappy Boyington of the TV show Black Sheep Squadron had little in common with the real life Boyington. Boyington even worked on and appeared in that show!
Boyington won the Medal of Honour for 40 victories but some doubt exists as to weather he really scored that many. Some evidence shows he may have "Fudged" the records a bit! He was dishonourably discharged from the AVG before returning to the Marine Corps and spent the last year of the war as a prisoner of the Japanese.
Whatever the truth about Boyington, the fact remains that he was a great leader and an outstanding fighter pilot.
 
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Reply #14 - Sep 28th, 2003 at 1:18pm

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Quote:
Australias highest scoring Ace is Clive Caldwell, with I think, 22. I don't think anyone knows who he is or was. I've never seen a book on him, although I'm sure there must be one or two.


Clive Caldwell finished the war with 27 victories. Interestingly, most of these were whilst flying P-40's in North Africa and not flying the MkVIII Spitfire that I always associate with him.
Also from your part of the world Professor old pal, New Zealand's top ace, Colin F. Grey scored 27.5 victories. Grey scored all his flying the Spitfire in the ETO. Grey, like Johnson flew Spits throughout the war and flew most of the major marques.
 
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