There is a forum devoted to general banter.  It's called GENERAL DISCUSSION!   Actually, there are two.  You might like a little place called 'Cafe Simviation'

Yes we are smart enough, yes we do get really silly, yes sometimes the subjects are inane and generally useless, and no, I would not change a thing.  That banter is what makes Simviation unique.  Go to Avsim or No Nodes and try discussing the time in Antarctica and see how long you last...

As for politics and religion.  It is a case of common sense.  There are people and there are people.  Anywhere you try to discuss something that is contrary to the core of another person's belief's, there is going to be trouble.  Yes it is controversial banning those two subjects, but see the above paragraph and I think it's justified.  The idea is to keep it light and sensible.  Making light of each other's pictures is not attacking a core value, for the most part.  Telling someone there is no God when they believe there is, is.

Why do you have to know my political or religious beliefs to know if I'm a good person or not?  Look at what your opinion is now, while you do not know.  You know what?  Political/religious beliefs are probably the most unimportant thing we could discuss here.

I agree with Pippin 100%. In fact I'm smart enough to know far more than you might think about most regulars on this forum by simply reading between the lines. Even in private conversations with friends I make it a rule never to discuss politics or religion & try very hard to keep to that rule. Most people have strong feelings on these subjects & nothing I say will convince them otherwise. It would most likely have the reverse effect & in extreme cases might spoil a beautiful friendship.  

Anything else goes as far as I'm concerned. If it's said with a smiley, so much the better. There's plenty of forums & chat rooms to discuss more serious subjects if you wish to do so. Please let's keep this place a refuge from the real world.

You're missing the point Hype This forum was originally set up to discuss matters Flight Sim. Period.........!
It has since been extended to allow discussion on general subjects in a lighthearted way. You of all people should know how easy it is to be misunderstood & innocently (or perhaps deliberately) start a flame war even on insignificant topics like viruses. LOL

My religious & political beliefs are private & my business. I have no desire to know yours. If I said what I think in open forum I would most likely lose all my American friends & even drive them away from here. That I have no wish to do. Anyone wishing to discuss serious matters like politics & religion with other members can use the PM feature.

1.  The virus thread wasn't a flame war.  It was my presentation of the facts from legitimate sources vs. someone who had a friend who worked with computers all day.  lol 

2.  You're right, you might lose friends with opposing viewpoints.  But those aren't friends.  Friends are people who will support you because you've got beliefs, not run because they're different.

You don't like Americans? Awesome!  I don't like some of them either.  I don't like some people from many ethnic backgrounds.  That's what makes me unique.

3.  You're not being FORCED to share your own beliefs, and you're certainly not being FORCED to read the beliefs of others.  It's that simple.  If someone doesn't want to read my threads, I could not possibly care less.  They're the ones missing out.

We don't have to agree when it comes to anything, especially our personal beliefs and philosphies.  Personally, I'd rather have people intelligently and maturely disagree with me.

If some here can not do that, it is a shortcoming of theirs, not of ours.

Right, but if something is taken the wrong way, why not clarify it? 

Hold responsible those who flame.

This is my last word on this.  This thread is inflammatory to say the least.  Scott, if you have a problem with the forums, I would suggest you take it up with Pete IN PRIVATE by PM.  This is only going to cause exactly what you say you hope to avoid.  Unless you are looking for a fight, this is not the way to go with your complaint.  It is only stirring up trouble.

1.  Sorry for the confusion, Hagar.  I didn't mean you specifically.


2.  Pippin, how is it an inflammatory thread?  How is it stirring up trouble?  It's just another example of people discussing something intelligently, and no flaming has occured, you'll notice, yet for some reason, it fears getting locked, because a moderator has put their foot down.

This is my precise point, and exactly why I started the thread.

We can't discuss something intelligently, even if no flaming is going on, without the moderators closing the door.

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Hyp, you obiviously are very pasionate about your beliefs, and you know...thats great! Many people are just too agreable for fear of being branded as different.

However, if these forums do not fulfill your needs, then maybe it is necessary to seek out a forum like the one Ozzy suggested to fill that need.

That way, you can still come to this forum and share your questions and thoughts about FS and things that are allowed! 

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Well Hyp, it depends on how it is couched. What does the fact that the aforementioned people are Americans have to do with whether you like them or not? There are people that I do not like, where they are from is moot.

Let me rearrange your quote, just one word change and see if the meaning changes radically.

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Is that acceptable? No, it is not. You would rather judge a Black on his merits rather than his color, would you not?

Now, if you do not like Americans just because they are Americans. That is fine too. And if it was true I would not be offended. (Mostly cause I live in Texas and it is advertised as a "whole 'nother country") Seriously, If you disliked "Americans" I wouldn't want to be friends with you, plain and simple. So if you are posting things negative about "Americans" or America, it makes me feel unwelcome. Nor would I want to hang in a forum that had a lot of anti-American sentiment. Same with the French or anyone else.

My point is, that with the freedom of speech comes the responsibility to know when not to use it. Thoughtfullness, consideration of others feelings.

In public I am not so concerned, but here in this community, I am concerned about hurting someone's feelings, you all are my friends. So that invokes the responsibility.

That is what it all boils down to. Do you care whether or not your readership is hurt or offended.

One last point. Anytime you have a political discussion, there is invariably someone who has a joke, comment or cartoon about the subject that is funny as hell but is going to offend someone and they override common sense and post it anyway. Always, without fail. Then are baffled as to why they are flamed.

Regarding going to other forums. I Hang quite a bit at the Outhouse as well. There are some Internationals, but it is mostly one hundert purcent true blue Mericanism there. I feel at home.

But I hang more here. I have made friends here. In general I feel welcome here because I do not have to hear all the time what a jerk I am because I am American.

We hear it everywhere - in our own media, in our own schools, on the job, in the papers, from our own government - so why would we go somehwere that has it when we are relaxing?

Any time you want to ask me about why Americans do this or that, fine, I would be happy to discuss it with you.
But, when someone posts that Americans are dicked up because they did this or that, I do not want to hear it. That is not what I come HERE for. And if you make a post asking me something like that we will have a nice conversation, for about 2 or 3 post before some idget has to make what they think is a funny, then the fur flies.

As said before, this is an International forum where all feel welcome. Why? Because the Mods do there job well. If not, this would the Nationalistic forums rather than International. Because Americans would be excluded. Is that what you want?

This whole post was said with a smile.

[quoteLet me rearrange your quote,] [/quote]

He did not make the comment with the term Black. I did to make a point. So,....oops - sorry Hyp.

My whole tirade was more for general readership to understand why I am not tolerant of anti-American statements. Right after I first got here there was a lot of it. It was during the start of the war. I was defending my country. Most of the coments and jokes were coming from a Frenchman. You can ask Ozzy, I restrained myself from retaliation. Too bad too, I had a ton of good French Jokes. But I felt this was neither the time nor the place. Since then I have made friends and decided to stay.

But friends or no, I still would not tolerate it. And the mods do a good job.

I do not come here for political debate, there are forums that specialize in that. When I have a party in my home there are two subjects that are taboo, politics and religion, either will start a cat fight in a heartbeat. So I feel no different when congregating with friends here.

Scott, we were NOT having a go. We mods have to keep an eye on things, and politics like religion is a v.passionate area for many people. That is why I suggested that other forum, they want to discuss these things. Brave. I go mental talking politics and it normally ends up with me proposing to shoot various MPs and bomb the EU headquarters or some such silliness.
Also please remember that Europeans are far more conservative on the issue than you worldly Statesiders. I've always enjoyed the frankness of American politics, and the brutality of the press. Much cleaner than the money in a brown paper bag stuff we have in Britain
In my early days here I got a jolly stiff talking too from Pete for a rather accurate but crass observation about America and certain actions re-a certain Senator. Now what I said was right, and I would stand by it 100% but Pete for a number of good reasons doesn't want politics or religious wobblies being caused around here, so the mods for good or bad have to deal with these.
There have been times I've had to lock a thread when I was in 100% agreement with what someone was saying, but it didn't fit in with SimV. So you have to respect Pete (he is the Guv'nor), and his wishes for the site.
Is this limiting freedom of speech? Perhaps. Personally I view it as not upsetting anyone (barring a certain couple recently). I mentioned politics in a class once and ended up in a couple of metric tonnes of elephant poo over it Turned out that the political party I was making my err observation about, well the son of one of its prominent MPs was in that class
So here is my top idea. Lets go flying and supp some beer

Mark (not as wise as Confusicous, but considerable more sober than WC Fields, well until the next beer anyways)

PS. When do you want to have that race?

PPS. I know Oso had a lot of good French jokes, I sent him a load Some of his had me rolling on the floor. But I still have friends in France.

Even the nationalities thing got a little out of hand a while back, when France opposed the little shindig in the Gulf, there were quite a few problems here that seemed to prove the case in point of Petes not wanting certain topics here. That was why talk of the war was banned. We didn't want to end up like certain lesser forums
A good American friend of mine here, and a French gentleman ended up at loggerheads. And things got a little colourful.
As for Political Correctness! **** it! Call a poor person a poor person not fiscally challenged! Thats my motto, I too am honest, but unfortunately slightly less subtle than an A-Bomb But hey, it keeps my students in line

Mark

Ps. Do you really think you can whip me? I've been practising in the 51 in my spare time, you are going to have to fly the rivets off her to take me

Nah, lets do it in identical aircraft. Then it'll be down to skill of pilot and amount of beer consumed
Now that IS the way to fly

Mark

Err yeah right. Like anyone could take me when I'm in my beloved Spit!

Mark

  Oh man, I gotta get in on this one!

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  No...not collectively, there are some individuals here who would fair very well in an intellectual debate on hot topics.
  It takes a certain type of person to express their views and accept the criticism of others, while at the same time constructively arguing your views of someone elses beliefs, without the arguement becoming heated.
  I have found that most often a little switch gets clicked on in a lot of people that instantly turns a heated discussion into personal attack, there are misunderstandings and misinterpitations and soon we have a brawl.

  You probably know who you can discuss things of this nature with and perhaps there is a better place to do this than here at SimV.

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  I was just wonderin', I never expected that thread to become what it has!

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  I totally agree with this, We have to remember we are guests here, and I think Pete let's us get away with quite a bit already, and I have to add that I don't think SimV would be a cool as it is if we were to allow a lot of hot topics to be discussed, there would be the danger of this forum turning into the name-calling-free-for-all that keeps me away from most other message boards and especially chat rooms.

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  Well now, there you go.

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  You don't have to give up anything, you should check out the link Ozzy posted, there is no reason you can't go see if that is what you are looking for, a forum to discuss your views on more serious issues, if you found it to be a suitable place with the proper maturity level to debate hot topics, you could let us know by personal or public message, you never know, maybe some of us here would even go there and join you on some of the topics not allowed here.
No one has to give up SimV to join other forums, I go to a lot of other forums for information, but I have found a home base here at SimV.

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  Exactly, you don't have to give up the friendships you have developed here, you're cool with us.

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  See, that's kind of an attack right there.
The moderators just try to stop things before they get out of hand, and I think there are times when we all have been allowed to cross the line in one way or another.

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  All forms of media would be so much cooler if everyone could live by this philosophy, no one would ever have anything to bitch about, if you don't like the show,don't watch it, if you don't like the song, change the station, unfortunetly it doesn't usually work that way and everytime some one sees or hears something they don't like, the next thing you know, it's banned or restricted or shutdown.
  I am not easily offended, and I believe everyone should have access to whatever they want, but someone is always going to complain therefore making it difficult for me to easily obtain the things I may find interesting.

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  There you go, this is Pete's forum, and he has made it clear to his moderators what is not allowed, you have to respect that, and find another place for those discussions, but you never have to stop coming to SimV.

Hi Scott,

I fully admit what the 'no politics' thing amounts to is a certain restriction of expression - & what you are saying is that you can't be yourself - you feel, you have to live in the surface - gag yourself effectively .. (?)

The thing is that we didn't have this policy before & the place was just no fun at all.

I used to hate forums because every time I ever tried asking a well intended question I would be laughed at & mocked by the nerdheads that hung out there..... I became convinced forums were places where greasepots with no lives hung out & they got their own back on the human race by having the shield of cyberspace & they could become the bullies they couldn't be in real life. 

I've always tried to create simviation to give people fun & happiness. This is no wishy washy airheaded thing - it has stemmed from the early days when I discovered people were getting real enjoyment by what they were finding on our site. I have a file full of stories - from people who have been wheelchair bound - folk with terminal illnesses - kids who have gone on to real flight training - dads & sons brought together - the list goes on.

When it comes to 'politics' - there are a lot of people out there who will go awol if you start talking politics. We all know 'politics' causes the deaths of millions of people in the real world. Wars alone are politics. One persons political passion is another persons reason to kill him. Most people DON'T think this way - but the point is it's a spectrum of feelings. Some white hot. Others as soft as a feather. That's the point ..

I don't want to know your politics any more than I want to know your sexual fantasies. It's your business. If I knew it I might not like you any more    8)

Do I really have to say more?

& as a footnote - this thread DOES indeed seem to have settled down nicely  8) 

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Well said Oso.

Hype. I also get your point & nothing in this thread offended me in the slightest. If nothing else, it does prove that some of us are smart enough to discuss these things sensibly if we wished to do so. Pete said it all really so I guess there's no more to add.

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I'm not sure if Paz was referring to me here. 
I know I'm an old gasbag who likes nothing more than adding my two penn'orth to any subject under the sun, except politics & religion.

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Oso - you're one hell of a character!!!  

NO!!!! DEFINITLEY NOT!!!!!  


I swear that 'back from the dead' thing still has me laughing to myself like a freek in public places ...  

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Fozzer - I said I didn't want to know about your sexual fantasies ......      8) 

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Hi Hyp...!
You can sit in the grass all day talking about Politics and Religion to sheep, and they will just look back at you with that "affectionate look", just like sheep do, together with the occasional....Baaaa.... 8)...!

It's so relaxing.... ...!
LOL...LOL...LOL..!

Cheers Mate...!
Paul...(It's getting late now, sheep. Back in the shed with you...)... ...!
(England).

Pip, I may not have been here very long, but one thing I've learned about Fozzer is that he's always doing things to warrant a spanking.  Don't fall into his dirty lil trap.  lol

Paz, admit it.  I'm right and you're wrong.

Sorry dude, you were begging for it.

Here's my opinion, and I'm sure Fozzer will agree with me......

I come here to relax, have fun, and get away from all the problems in the world

Probably the reason why nobody thinks I'm a serious person

But seriously, even news stories have resulted in flame wars here. I remember during the war when the US military accidentally shot down a british fighter. As sad as it was, ozzy posted a thread about it, and within hours Americans and Great Britains were hurling insults at eachother.

And insults have even caused forum members to rarely come back. If I remember right, this is the case with DougDC3

So let's all just forget about the problems, and have a good time

I seem to have missed another 'flamer'. I see mention of some 'Virus' thread that turned nasty.

Why do I always miss 'em.??

Maybe I'm too busy putting the world right..........

Speaking of which, I refer to the 'religion' thing. There has been some 'quiet', sensible, non-threatening discussion regarding the question of Science versus Religion in Paz's 'Interesting' thread........ (what a thread....weeeeeeee!!!) It has developed into a pretty comprehensive discussion on several varying topics with absolutely no relationship to each other whatsoever.

There has been no ill feeling or any chance of a flame war.  

So, basically, it does happen, and serious discussion of subjects considered 'banned' are ventured upon. Then do you know what happens? People regard the thread as completely 'disjointed' and difficult to follow, to the point of having to ask "What the hell is going on here". It's comical to me. 

Personally, I love it. The threads come alive, and the people who take part are taken on a kind of 'psychadelic, mystery tour' (to coin a phrase.......

Pete said:
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I recall saying exactly this not long ago. I still only come here. I visit no other forum or chat room.
I could get involved in the Star Trek or Star Gate forums, as I'm interested in them. And I know there are many Sim forums, but I'm not interested in the crap that goes on in these places. Never have been. They're for mainly cowards, who would spend their days insulting without the risk of their I.D. becoming apparent. Really intellectual stuff! Anonymous insults.............

Also there is no place on the Net, other than here, that I would even consider posting my picture or any personal details whatsoever.
So thank you people for the good place to come. There is one at least!  

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You right mate, sorry. I'm involved pretty heavily in discussions in a few a the moment, so I lost track.

But, in any case, I think it's one of the most interesting for quite a time. It seems we're just about ready to discuss the 'meaning of life, the Universe and everything' a la 'Hitchhikers Guide......'

Or have we done that already? 

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Blimey Andrew.. ..!
That's going to start a right old fight between the "Believers" and the "Non-Believers"... ...!
The big Bang, and Darwins theory of evolution versus Adam and Eve in the orchard, nickin' apples... ...!
LOL...!
I'll dig a hole, and go and hide in it... ...!
LOL...LOL...LOL...!

Cheers Mate... ...!
Paul.
(England).

Some large, comforting words for Pippin.


Will

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We seem to have come full circle. A free-for-all would be the quickest way to close this forum for ever. Please read Pete's comments. There are some subjects we voluntarily steer clear of in respect of his wishes.

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Hi Hyp...!
Anytime you feeling really, REALLY angry and feel all the World is against you, just look at this pic of Fozzers roast beef and Yorkshire pudding dinner*, and pop into your kitchen, with a bottle of vino, and do the same... ...!
...it's the ultimate in stress-relief... 8)...!

Note on the table that I had a load of spam delivered in my E-Mail today. No problemo. I just slice it up and put it into sandwiches... ...!



Cheers Mate... ...!
Paul....Happy,...busy in the kitchen... 8)...!
(England).

*any excuse to show-off my culinary skills.... ...LOL...!

A quick question.

Is the term "Flame War" an expression specific to 'SimV' or 'Forums in general' or maybe a common American expression?

Reason for asking is because I have begun using it (inadvertantly) in conversation about other things. Pretty much, wherever I used to use the term "S*it Fight", which is quite common here for a blew, a row or an argument or fight, I am saying "flame war". Naturally, some aren't aware of my meaning, then I have to say "Oh sorry, s*hit fight" and then explain where I got the expression and then some want to know what this SimV thing is and.........................it's all very tedious.......

(It would seem that my native tongue has been 'infected' with a virus!! - Cyber-jargon. At least that's what it is here!