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Another Interesting Ponderance?? (Read 584 times)
Reply #15 -
Aug 2
nd
, 2003 at 6:42am
Hagar
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Quote:
I know, for Australians to get anything that approached the 'tallies' (hence the expression 'tally-ho' which tranlates to something like "There's 'tally' or scoring to be had over there")
Not sure about this Brensec. It might be the Aussie definition. I always understood that Tally-ho! is the hunting cry still used by the foxhunting fraternity when the prey is spotted. In rough terms it means "There he is - let's go get him". Most of the regular RAF BoB pilots were officers, from the "upper classes" & brought up in the hunting tradition.
Quote:
E. Cobham Brewer 1810–1897. Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898.
Tally-ho!
is the Norman hunting cry Taillis au! (To the coppice). The tally-ho was used when the stag was viewed in full career making for the coppice. We now cry "Tally-ho!" when the fox breaks cover. The French cry is "Taïaut!"
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Reply #16 -
Aug 2
nd
, 2003 at 7:03am
ATI_9700pro
Ex Member
the luftwaffe pilots had a lot more combat experience due to the entire war than the allied or russian pilots due to the spanish civil war,where they could develop some new tactics and strategies. the allies used their old pre-WW2 tactics or even still WW1 tactics until the middle of the BoB.
and russian airplanes were no "turkeys" they were heavily armoured. the IL-2 was even called "airplane made of concrete", because it was nearly invincible and had little weaknesses (oil cooler).
even the western front was a "turkey shoot" for the germans. the best german western front pilot was Heinz Bär with 124 kills. or Hans Joachim Marseille with 158 kills,but he just encountered some Warhawks and other inferior planes.
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Reply #17 -
Aug 2
nd
, 2003 at 9:47am
packercolinl
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I'll go with Hagar on the TallyHo.My father and other family members were RAAF(Dad trained for aircrew Europe)and TallyHo was purely Brit.
Dads mother was German if you're wondering on the connection.
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Reply #18 -
Aug 2
nd
, 2003 at 10:04pm
Professor Brensec
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more inches, Adam?
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Quote:
Not sure about this Brensec. It might be the Aussie definition. I always understood that Tally-ho! is the hunting cry still used by the foxhunting fraternity when the prey is spotted. In rough terms it means "There he is - let's go get him". Most of the regular RAF BoB pilots were officers, from the "upper classes" & brought up in the hunting tradition.
You misunderstand. I'm noy saying that "tally-ho" is an Australian expression, in fact, I know it's British, and I also realise it originates from fox hunting, rather than WWII fighter pilot lingo.
But I read, fairly recently, (I'll try and remember where and give the link), that the expression meant lterally "there is a fox (or whatever the prey might be) to add to our 'Tally"). Tally meaning - count or score and Ho meaning - there or over there (as in "Forward Ho")
That's what I was alluding to when I placed in parentheses the "(hence the expression......blah blahh)".
I, in no way, meant that the expression was not British or that it originated from anything other than the 'Fox hunt'.
ATI, I'm sure we're all in agreeance that the Germans had the benefit of combat experience long before any of the Allies had the chance. At least more than one or two people along with myself have acknowledged this.
As far as the Russian planes not being 'fodder' is concerned. I acknowledge that Russian planes introduce to the skies later, say, after the tide turned at Stalingrad, were equal to, if not superior to the German planes. My point was that there was a very large amount of I-16's to be shot down in the first few months (and alot of the German kills would have been a result of these), and these planes were far slower, less manouevrable, not as heavily armed and the pilots, for the main part, were inexperienced. That is all I am saying.
We can all agree on the fact that, although the Germans did lead all party's in terms of new aviation developments (ie jet engines, rocket bombs etc), they didn't have the facilities to take advantage of these developments because of many reasons. Firstly, the Allied bombing was a continual hinderance to any kind of production. Hitler seemed to 'interfere' with the progress of some of the more successful developments (ie the Me262). And also the shortages of all types of materials and fuel made any efforts in new technologies minimally available. Add to all this the shortage of exprienced operators, especially pilots, and you have the situation that basically saved the Allies from suffering to any great degree from the result of most of these developments.
Of, course, while all this was going on, all the Allies were making thier own discoveries and developments, without any great deal of hinderance from bombing or shortages, in materials or manpower and experienced operators.
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Reply #19 -
Aug 3
rd
, 2003 at 4:54am
ATI_9700pro
Ex Member
Quote:
As far as the Russian planes not being 'fodder' is concerned. I acknowledge that Russian planes introduce to the skies later, say, after the tide turned at Stalingrad, were equal to, if not superior to the German planes. My point was that there was a very large amount of I-16's to be shot down in the first few months (and alot of the German kills would have been a result of these), and these planes were far slower, less manouevrable, not as heavily armed and the pilots, for the main part, were inexperienced. That is all I am saying.
some russian planes were superior to the german ones,but just at the end of the war (maybe from the end of '44 on) .
and those I-16s were quite manouverable and they were f***** slow...
Quote:
We can all agree on the fact that, although the Germans did lead all party's in terms of new aviation developments (ie jet engines, rocket bombs etc), they didn't have the facilities to take advantage of these developments because of many reasons. Firstly, the Allied bombing was a continual hinderance to any kind of production.
no. the allies could certainly take out some V-2 or V-1 ramps,but the main part of the production was placed in secret undergroundfacitilies, as well as the aircraft production. the allies never achieved a complete stop of the aircraft production,maybe for a few days.
Quote:
Hitler seemed to 'interfere' with the progress of some of the more successful developments (ie the Me262). And also the shortages of all types of materials and fuel made any efforts in new technologies minimally available. Add to all this the shortage of exprienced operators, especially pilots, and you have the situation that basically saved the Allies from suffering to any great degree from the result of most of these developments.
yeah. if hitler hadn't blocked the development of the 262 until '43, the allies would have had some more problems over the german sky.
but the true reason for the loss of air war was the incompetence and incapacity of göring. but maybe it's better that we lost the war. but now,we've got to suffer under bad american music (britney spears)....arrrgh!
Quote:
Of, course, while all this was going on, all the Allies were making thier own discoveries and developments, without any great deal of hinderance from bombing or shortages, in materials or manpower and experienced operators.
yeah. but most of their weapon developments after the war were based on german designs.
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Reply #20 -
Aug 3
rd
, 2003 at 6:55am
Hagar
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My Spitfire Girl
Costa Geriatrica
Posts: 33159
Quote:
You misunderstand. I'm noy saying that "tally-ho" is an Australian expression, in fact, I know it's British, and I also realise it originates from fox hunting, rather than WWII fighter pilot lingo.
But I read, fairly recently, (I'll try and remember where and give the link), that the expression meant lterally "there is a fox (or whatever the prey might be) to add to our 'Tally"). Tally meaning - count or score and Ho meaning - there or over there (as in "Forward Ho")
That's what I was alluding to when I placed in parentheses the "(hence the expression......blah blahh)".
I understood what you meant old pal, just disagree with the derivation. I think it's commonly accepted that Tally-ho! is a hunting term. As with so many words in the English language the word "tally" has several definitions & comes from various sources. (This is what makes English so difficult to learn & fascinates silly old fools like me.) The "tally" in Tally-ho! is Norman in origin, from the word "taillis" originally translated as coppice.
taillis [n.m.] copse [n.]
This is not the same "tally" used in counting scores.
Middle English taly, from Anglo-Norman tallie, from Medieval Latin tallia, from Latin tlea, stick.
Literally translated, "Taillis au!" (the modern French "Taïaut!") means "To the woods!".
Quote:
(from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)
tally (COUNT) noun [C] [singular] SLIGHTLY OLD-FASHIONED
a record or count of a number of items:
Will you keep a tally of the number of customers going in and out?
tally (AGREE) verb [I]
to match or agree with something else:
Our figures don't tally - you've made it twenty pounds more than me.
Your plans don't tally with mine.
tally-room noun [C] [singular] AUSTRALIAN ENGLISH
a room in which votes are collected after an election
tally-ho exclamation
a shout made by a hunter who sees a fox
I also remember the "tally band" worn by sailors that cropped up in a previous thread.
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Reply #21 -
Aug 3
rd
, 2003 at 7:21am
Professor Brensec
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Can't you give me a couple
more inches, Adam?
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ATI, mate,
At the risk of creating an ongoing 'to and fro' exchange of ideas that can never really be put to rest, because most things can be judged a matter of opinion, I will just comment on a couple of your assertions.
True, the I-16 was a relatively manouevrable plane for what it was (age, design, size, weight etc), but my book puts it at a lower manouevring capability than most of the late 30's, early 40's fighters). But then again this is just the opinion of the one book author. Still I think we agree they were a fairly easy prey for the 109's and their experienced pilots - as we have both said - IN THE BEGINNING, which is when this whole 'air kill' discussion is based upon.
The success of the Allied bombing campaign has always been a point of contention. Depending on what source you are reading or listening to, the bombing can be discribed as anything from a marvellous success to a dismal failure.
I personally think there were incidences of each, and everything in between. There was certain success in the oilfields in the Caucuses. There was also a very damaging shortage of 'ball-bearings' towards the end, I believe, due to a concentrated effort on these types of facilities. There were certainly more failures than the 'Movies' would have us believe. I'm sure the success rate of missions, in terms of actually destroying or doing serious damage to a target, would be around no more than 10% (and I may even be being hopeful, with that figure).
I think the fact of the matter is that, as the Reich was 'shrinking' and with the raw materials and labour forces shrinking along with it, any kind of loss of production or stock, regardless of how large or small, was a blow to the new projects and the production of the mainstay machines of war such as the 109, 190, tanks, 88mm guns etc. Everything was so overstretched that there really wasn't enough, before the Allied invasion in June '44 to supply the units, let alone supply two fully engaged fronts (three, if you count Italy) with the level of replacements required.
There were always "under-supplied' units and 'better-supplied" units, due to their prestige and the influence of the person after whom they were named (Goerings unit and Himlers SS Panzer units always got the best supplies, quicker and easier). This clearly demonstrates that there really wasn't enough for all to begin with.
So, if nothing else, the bombing could be described as the "straw that broke the camels back", I suppose.
As for the Us developments after the war being a continuation of German projects. Yes, definitely, I agree. The Russians also captured and worked on this sort of thing too.
But my comments aren't about, after the war. I have already agreed that the Germans were certainly ahead in the technology department, as far as aviation is concerned. I simply say that, thanks to, or due to meddling by parties, and due to shortages, which I've just explained my view on how the bombing campaign at least contributed.
Finally, the Allies did manage to come up with a few developments which did go a long way towards ultimate victory. I don't think anyone would object to the P51-D being included in this catagory.
The P51-D, with a range of just over 2,000 miles, allowed the bombers to reach their targets relatively safely. They also took the opportunity when escorting the bombers to destroy a good part of the remaining fighter strength of the Luftwaffe, and along with that was active in rocketing and staffing anything on the ground that moved. That plane was a marvellous advantage enjoyed by the Allies for which the Germans had no equal, nor any effective counter.
The ground attack capabilities of the British Typhoon and Tempest (along with the P47), made it necessary for the Germans to move at night only, or risk anihilation.
I will agree that there are plenty of examples of how German advancements and technology were well ahead of that of the Allies (the Me262, the Panther, Tiger and King Tiger, the V weapons and that marvelous 88 ). But once again, I simply said that the Allies were able to pursue the development and production of their 'new things' unhindered by shortages of raw materials (there may have been some, of course) and facilities and labour, as well as any serious German bombing raids, whereas the Germans were hindered in all these areas.
The German propensity towards ultra-quality (which resulted in difficulty in production) versus the Allied credo of "stick with the tried and tested, even though it may be inferior to what the enemy has (ie the Sherman) and just make heaps of them, may have contributed a little to the difference in the success in the production areas of each side, too.
To be perfectly honest, I'm very surprised the Reich held out for as long as it did. If just a couple of their new developments (say the me262) had reached high volume production and if they had had the experienced pilots, the USAAF and RAF and Russians would have been in big pooh!
Sorry for the huge post, but I needed to explain that I am not down on Germans or Germany, and I acknowlege all the ability and achievement involved duing the War. But I maintain the points I made, in the context that they were made in, are still valid.
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Reply #22 -
Aug 3
rd
, 2003 at 4:48pm
HawkerTempest5
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I've been away a few days and missed this post going up so, if I may, I'd like to add a little personal note to this with regard to German airmen.
I recently had the great good fortune to meet Lt. General Gunther Rall, the third highest scoring ace of all time with 275 confirmed victories. Gunther scored almost all his victories on the Eastern front and was himself shot down eight times, broke his back and lost his left thumb.
I've now had the good fortune to meet quite a few of these brave men, from both sides and I consider it a great honour to meet these men. Whatever side they fought on, they are all heroes.
Flying Legends
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Reply #23 -
Aug 4
th
, 2003 at 2:01am
ATI_9700pro
Ex Member
Quote:
The P51-D, with a range of just over 2,000 miles, allowed the bombers to reach their targets relatively safely. They also took the opportunity when escorting the bombers to destroy a good part of the remaining fighter strength of the Luftwaffe, and along with that was active in rocketing and staffing anything on the ground that moved. That plane was a marvellous advantage enjoyed by the Allies for which the Germans had no equal, nor any effective counter.
The ground attack capabilities of the British Typhoon and Tempest (along with the P47), made it necessary for the Germans to move at night only, or risk anihilation.
okay,i agree that the P-51 was an awesome plane,but it only had so much success ,because the germans already had a big loss of experienced pilots and fighters. i think the mustangs would have had many more problems,if they encountered a fully equipped luftwaffe.
Quote:
To be perfectly honest, I'm very surprised the Reich held out for as long as it did. If just a couple of their new developments (say the me262) had reached high volume production and if they had had the experienced pilots, the USAAF and RAF and Russians would have been in big pooh!
the germans still had some aces and even a 262 squadron consisting of aces only! (their leader was adolf galland)
and yes,they kicked some allied asses. but not enough...
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