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Aussie made F86?? (Read 755 times)
Reply #15 - Jul 20th, 2003 at 8:11am

Professor Brensec   Offline
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Quote:
I was also going to mention the Jug. I think that's due to the similar engine cowling. I've only seen the thumbnail in the CFS2 section. Maybe it's the particular markings that reminds me of a Sea Fury.

[img]


I'm at work, so can't jump into my CFS stable to look but I think the Fury is the same colour and of course the RAF and RAAF roundels are similar too.
I think the Fury also has the Dark 'saddle' on top too.

In fact, now that I see the thumbnail. It really does look quite a bit like the P47 (until you see the wing shape).
The same style 'bubble canopy' has alot to do with it too. It seems to be in the same position and the fuselage is 'fat' and round. Even the four blade propellor probably contributes to the P47D classic look Grin
 

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Reply #16 - Jul 20th, 2003 at 8:46am

Hagar   Offline
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In fact, now that I see the thumbnail. It really does look quite a bit like the P47 (until you see the wing shape).
The same style 'bubble canopy' has alot to do with it too. It seems to be in the same position and the fuselage is 'fat' and round. Even the four blade propellor probably contributes to the P47D classic look Grin

You're right of course. The fuselage has the pot-bellied look of the Jug. I was swayed purely by the similar marking to the Sea Fury. I'm not sure if this particular model is based on accurate drawings or pure speculation on the part of the designer.  Roll Eyes
 

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Reply #17 - Jul 20th, 2003 at 8:48pm

Professor Brensec   Offline
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I recall the designer (sorry, I can't remember his name), posted a preview of the plane in 'Raw Screenshots' prior to it being released. I hung out for it for weeks, until I finally saw it and got it.
It's the same bloke who did the CA15 with the Griffon. (That's a great fighter, I thoroughly recommend a download to everyone. It's very fast, and climbs at something like 4,000 fpm, at 140 kts.)

I vaguely recall he mentiobned having a drawing, but I don't know what kind. May have just been a 'sketch'.

The fact that the thing was never actually made, makes it impossible to get the performance and flight characteristics, as there are none. But, as I said, it doesn't handle very well. It's a real dog, actually. The Griffon version he made is a very manoeuvrable plane, with quite a tight turn for that size plane. I don't know, again, whether those handling characteristics are from any 'official' design info. After all, the only one that was made was flown by only 2 or 3 people, so there wouldn't be much to go on anyway.  Grin Wink
 

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Reply #18 - Jul 21st, 2003 at 2:34am

Hagar   Offline
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The fact that the thing was never actually made, makes it impossible to get the performance and flight characteristics, as there are none. But, as I said, it doesn't handle very well. It's a real dog, actually. The Griffon version he made is a very manoeuvrable plane, with quite a tight turn for that size plane. I don't know, again, whether those handling characteristics are from any 'official' design info. After all, the only one that was made was flown by only 2 or 3 people, so there wouldn't be much to go on anyway.  Grin Wink

I don't think the fact that only one was built or few pilots flew it has any bearing on its behaviour in the sim. Flight dynamics is the most difficult part to get right with any aircraft designed for any M$ sim, even those with a known performance. The talents & skills required for creating the visual model are completely different to FD editing. A decent visual model with accurate performance is just too much to expect from a designer working alone.

FS flight dynamics is a specialised subject & very few claim to know much about it. There are simply too many unknowns in the AIR file. I was never too impressed with the M$ flight model anyway. If the designer of that CA-15 is anything like me he based it on a default aircraft of a similar type/general specification & left it at that. I'm very sceptical of claims that an aircraft flies realistically in any M$ sim. I often wonder if the majority of so-called FD gurus have ever flown a real aircraft.
« Last Edit: Jul 21st, 2003 at 4:01am by Hagar »  

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Reply #19 - Jul 23rd, 2003 at 11:43pm

Professor Brensec   Offline
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Sorry Hagar, been offline for a feww days, working.

Anyway, re your last post. I wasn't aware that the flight dynamics part of building a Sim plane was so difficult. (But thern I know next to nothing about these things really).

Given what you have said about msot builders using, or at least starting with a 'stock' air file, and maybe, I imagine, making some possible mods to that, given known characteristics, what is your opinion about the accuracy, or lack there of, of the 1% planes? I think these are 'billed' at places like avhistory as "very close to behaving like the original plane" or words similar.
Do you think this is a realistic representation?   Cheesy Grin Wink
 

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Reply #20 - Jul 24th, 2003 at 4:29am

Hagar   Offline
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Given what you have said about msot builders using, or at least starting with a 'stock' air file, and maybe, I imagine, making some possible mods to that, given known characteristics, what is your opinion about the accuracy, or lack there of, of the 1% planes? I think these are 'billed' at places like avhistory as "very close to behaving like the original plane" or words similar.
Do you think this is a realistic representation?   Cheesy Grin Wink

I'm not really the one to ask about accuracy. As I mentioned previously, I was never convinced the M$ flight model is too realistic anyway. This makes it difficult to create an accurate representation of anything. Also, M$ refuse to give details on their original flight model so we're very often working in the dark. This comment from the official FS2002 Insider site says it all.
Quote:
Why don't you release the details of the .AIR files that define the flight characteristics for the aircraft in Flight Simulator?

The .AIR files contain proprietary data that aircraft manufacturers have provided to us. To help protect that information, we don't release the internal details of the .AIR file.
http://zone.msn.com/flightsim/FS02Readback04.asp



The  guys at Avhistory have a good reputation & are resepected in the community. They have the most experience in this area & are dedicated to producing accurate flight dynamics. I'm not about to argue with them. The special process they use for creating accurate flight dynamics is the best available. This obviously depends on all the data & information being available & it being used properly.
 
The only people who could tell you if this produces an accurate representation of a particular aircraft would be the pilots who flew them. Personally, I'm not too convinced. In my limited experience, the real thing is much easier to fly than anything I've found in the sims. If some of these WWII types were really as difficult to fly as they are in the sim, rookie pilots would never have been able to handle them, let alone fly them in combat. Roll Eyes
 

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Reply #21 - Jul 24th, 2003 at 8:53am

Professor Brensec   Offline
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Being a pilot, you obviously would have a much better idea as far as the difficulty or ease with which these things would have been flown.
As you know I've only flown a plane once (so far) and from that I learnt nothing that I didn't already know.
So my experience is not limited, it's non existent. However, logic dictates, as you say, that these things must have been easier to fly than the Sim versions. With the 1% planes, if you make one mistake at a critical moment, there is vitually (pardon the pun!) no chance of recovery. But then again...........many pilots were lost (both experienced and imexperienced) through pilot error, rather than maechanical failure or battle.....................So.....how hard were they.
Would a bloke who flew one at 22 years of age, 60 years ago, be now able to give a reasonable judgement of the accuracy, by flying the Sim version at the age of 82? I very seriously doubt it!

M$ make quite a big beal in CFS2 about Joe Foss and Saburo Sakai being advisors. So maybe the ease with which the "stock' planes are flown, is a better representation.........................Dunno?

As far as M$'s answer to the AIR files question..........
Quote:
The .AIR files contain proprietary data that aircraft manufacturers have provided to us. To help protect that information, we don't release the internal details of the .AIR file

Aren't all of the spec's etc for all these planes, a matter of public record these days. I mean, whats the secret?
 

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Reply #22 - Jul 24th, 2003 at 9:36am

Hagar   Offline
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Would a bloke who flew one at 22 years of age, 60 years ago, be now able to give a reasonable judgement of the accuracy, by flying the Sim version at the age of 82? I very seriously doubt it!

LOL Knock 20 years off that & it would apply to me. I've only flown light aircraft although I had a few minutes stick time on a Hawker Hunter advanced trainer. My latest experience in the Extra (back in May this year) was just like flying one of my RC models. I've never flown anything like a Spitfire or Hurricane (chance would be a fine thing) but I'm convinced I could do so now, given the necessary pre-flight briefing. I'm not claiming that I could take off or land it without killing myself.

Quote:
M$ make quite a big beal in CFS2 about Joe Foss and Saburo Sakai being advisors. So maybe the ease with which the "stock' planes are flown, is a better representation.........................Dunno?

I'm in no postition to argue. We have to take their word for it. I have spoken to several ex-WWII pilots who have told me it's reasonably realistic.

Quote:
As far as M$'s answer to the AIR files question..........
Aren't all of the spec's etc for all these planes, a matter of public record these days. I mean, whats the secret?

I've always thought this is just an excuse for not revealing their secrets, a poor one at that.  Roll Eyes

You might be interested in this little item I found while researching your Mosquito.

Quote:
Notes on Merlin engines and Microsoft Flight Simulator.
By Even Larsen.

All Merlins were supercharged. They produced more power at altitude than at sea level.
This is most noticeable for the variants with two-stage superchargers (61, 69, 72/76, 73/77).
Flight Sim doesn't model superchargers, so power drops off at altitude (for ordinary
engines power = sea level power - altitude * some constant, I don't know whether FS uses
this formula). This makes it impossible to create fully realistic flight models for the Mosquito
and other planes with supercharged engines.

If you use realistic drag values, as I think you should, you are left with two alternatives:
First, you can use the takeoff power of the real world engine. This will give you a realistic
flight model at low altitude, (for takeoff and landing) but the plane will have mediocre
performance at altitude.

Alternatively, you can set engine power high enough to give you realistic performance at
altitude. This will give the model much more power than the real plane at low altitude and
manoeuvers that were difficult, and dangerous, in the real plane will become much easier.

Of course there is a third alternative: You can try to find some compromise power setting that
will give acceptable performance at high altitude, while still giving you a hard time with that
single-engine landing. In the case of the Mosquito, this will work best with the marks that
used the Merlin 25 or Packard Merlin 225. http://www.home.gil.com.au/~bfillery/mossie06.htm


PS. I was surprised to find that the organisation who gave me that unforgettable Extra aerobatic lesson use CFS2, rather than FS2002, for elementary formation aerobatic training.
 

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Reply #23 - Jul 24th, 2003 at 10:56am

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I knew Australia had them, but not Canada. You learn something amazing every day from Hagar. Cheers Doug Wink

Mark

Not only did we have them Mark, but look into this display team and see, in what regard, they were held in their day.............

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Reply #24 - Jul 24th, 2003 at 9:56pm

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and unless it has been disposed of, the Canadian Warbird Heritage Museum in Hamilton (Ontario) has an ex-Golden Hawks (or a Sabre painted as such) one.



Quote:
Not only did we have them Mark, but look into this display team and see, in what regard, they were held in their day.............


 

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Reply #25 - Jul 25th, 2003 at 12:33am

Professor Brensec   Offline
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Hagar,

I saw that bit about the supercharger anomally in the website for the Mossie too.
I suppose there are a number of similar.......trade-offs which need to be made, simply because the program would have to be so large and complicated to accommodate all the little quirks and characteristics of planes and engines which don't follow the 'general' rules that apply.
I must say though, it didn't surprise me all that much.  Grin Wink
 

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