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Is dogfighting dead? (Read 1226 times)
Jun 21st, 2003 at 1:13am

Wing Nut   Offline
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Looking at this past war, it seems to me like a shift has occured.  With all the major air forces of the world allied now, is dogfighting going to become a lost art?  The only real threats today (as far as air power goes) to the NATO forces is China and we're not likely to be in any kind of a shooting war with them any time soon.  In Gulf War version 1 and 1.1 there was no aerial combat, only ground attacks.  So what do you think?  Is there a shift away from air to air combat?
 

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Reply #1 - Jun 21st, 2003 at 1:53am

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I don't think the art will ever be lost. The US made this mistake just before its 'Nam adventures in that it thought with the new super amazing missiles of the time that dog-fighting was dead, so their fighters didn't have cannons, suddenly the Migs had the edge! And a large number of American planes and personnel were tragically lost through this oversight.
This lead to TopGun being setup.
No dog-fighting isn't dead.

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Reply #2 - Jun 21st, 2003 at 2:09am

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Nope, it probably isnt dead. China is not the only 'threat': Iran, NK...and maybe some others.
Remember that dogfighting is when two planes rattle around each other trying to shoot each other down. It doesnt matter if its with missles or guns. In the first Iraq war there were actually at least 30 kills or so i heard. most of them by F15s. Anyways dogfighting isnt dead....its dormant...for now.
 
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Reply #3 - Jun 21st, 2003 at 2:19am

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Stealth may actually tend to increase the likelyhood of a dogfight...

Just imagine, no BVR (Beyond Visual Range) missile shots, IR missiles not working due to airflow cooling techniques.

Get in there and go to guns. Smiley
 

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Reply #4 - Jun 21st, 2003 at 2:28am

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Yeah, but let's be real; North Korea or Iran are NOT a threat to US or Britain (or Canada, don't feel left out).  I'm not saying there wouldn't be any action or that we wouldn't take any losses.  But any air war where the object is to achieve superiority is going to be short and sweet from now on.
 

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Reply #5 - Jun 21st, 2003 at 2:53am

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Quote:
Yeah, but let's be real; North Korea or Iran are NOT a threat to US or Britain (or Canada, don't feel left out).  I'm not saying there wouldn't be any action or that we wouldn't take any losses.  But any air war where the object is to achieve superiority is going to be short and sweet from now on.


NK and Iran are technically (for now) threats; although not neccesarally to the US, but to the other parts of the world. Silverfox made a good point there, i never thought about that. But yes, 'air wars' are bound to be very short in the coming years..
 
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Reply #6 - Jun 21st, 2003 at 4:07am

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the thing is how many air battles will we actually ever here about? remember bush likes to keep much of his activitys secret and an air battle would prob be one of them. notice how there was no reports of the iraqi airforce at all, doesnt mean they wernt up there it could just mean it was kept a secret.
i personally think dogfight will always be around and a great art, in a sense it will only become a better art as the tactics have to change with technology
 
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Reply #7 - Jun 21st, 2003 at 7:22am

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like silverfox said stealth may (actually will) increase the chances of a dogfight most us planes have no ammo in their guns now. Missiles are dumb and unrelieable, for every missile there is a counter-measure but you can't trick guns.
 

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Reply #8 - Jun 21st, 2003 at 7:31am

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I read recently that RAF Typhoons will not have the gun option included, but all other nations will keep it. I just hope this does not mean we are going the way of the US in the years between Korea and Nam when they built fighters without guns because they thought the missile would be the only weapon they needed. Although missiles are now much more advanced than in the 60's, I'm sure most pilots would feel a bit better knowing they had the gun if needed.
The ommission of the Typhoons gun is most likely due to coat cutting rather than the fact that Typoon will have good missiles. Once again, people behind desks are deciding the fate of the men on the front line.
 

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Reply #9 - Jun 21st, 2003 at 7:55am

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Because coat cutting is so very expensive these days right tempest? Grin Tongue Wink
 

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Reply #10 - Jun 21st, 2003 at 8:55am

Ivan   Offline
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as soon as someone manages to make a laser gun in such a compact package that can be mounted on a fighter jet, any missile will be useless because it can be used as a defensive weapon.
Then you have to revert to dogfights once again, and you will see the Vietnam guns problem being repeated, with again the russians on the winning site in the beginning
 

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Reply #11 - Jun 21st, 2003 at 9:14am

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assuming its the russians who develop them first.
 
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Reply #12 - Jun 21st, 2003 at 10:43am

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could someone explain the math in the ommision of a gun in the Typhoon, each plane will cost £50m and the UK is getting 230 something, what percentage of the overall cost will be saved? Also if they dont want to buy new guns what the hell is wrong with the Tornados guns, they wont need em sinse they will be melted down when the Typhoon comes on the scene.
 

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Reply #13 - Jun 21st, 2003 at 12:23pm

Ivan   Offline
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Quote:
assuming its the russians who develop them first.


The russians are the only one still building real dogfighters.
i haven't seen the F-22 do a 'kulbit' or the famous 'cobra' even with steerable tailpipes, while the basic flanker can do it whitout having those
 

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Reply #14 - Jun 21st, 2003 at 12:31pm

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no, but then again have we really seen what it is  fully capable of, one way or another no other fighter will compare for a long time with the F-22, and thats what it was developed for, the cobra is a very risky manouvere to do in combat in my opinion and if the plane was fully loaded with missiles i doubt it would be a a good idea to attempt it, i am not much of an expert on russian aircraft not really my interests so you can correct that,Smiley
if i remember rightly i read somewhere about the flanker not being able to do the cobra with a fully loaded plane but again just what i have read. so again correct if i am wrong
 
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Reply #15 - Jun 21st, 2003 at 2:45pm

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Quote:
could someone explain the math in the ommision of a gun in the Typhoon, each plane will cost £50m and the UK is getting 230 something, what percentage of the overall cost will be saved? Also if they dont want to buy new guns what the hell is wrong with the Tornados guns, they wont need em sinse they will be melted down when the Typhoon comes on the scene.


As far as I can remember, the Tornado's 30mm is the same as that in the Typhoon. It's an old gun and has been in just about every RAF type since the Hunter.
 

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Reply #16 - Jun 21st, 2003 at 5:20pm

Ivan   Offline
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Quote:
no, but then again have we really seen what it is  fully capable of, one way or another no other fighter will compare for a long time with the F-22, and thats what it was developed for, the cobra is a very risky manouvere to do in combat in my opinion and if the plane was fully loaded with missiles i doubt it would be a a good idea to attempt it, i am not much of an expert on russian aircraft not really my interests so you can correct that,Smiley
if i remember rightly i read somewhere about the flanker not being able to do the cobra with a fully loaded plane but again just what i have read. so again correct if i am wrong

As far as i know all the single and inline seating flankers (Su-27, Su-35/35UB, Su-30MK, Su-37) can surely do the cobra, loaded with 7 tonnes, without load, and with aerodynamically unbalanced load (Su-30, with some of the latest russian guided AG missiles). For the aside-seating ones (Su-32, Su-34) I think they can do it too as they have almost the same airframe behind the cockpit area.

The Flanker is capable of outturning ANY manned fighter aircraft in service today, and is certified to a maximum structural limit of 20G for the total airframe while unloaded.
 

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Reply #17 - Jun 21st, 2003 at 10:11pm

denishc   Offline
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  Every ten years or so some goverment analyst says "Dogfighting is dead."  This causes a shift in air force policy that gets sadly misproven when the next war rolls around.
  As long as there are bombers or attack aircraft, either manned or UCAVs, to be attacked or protected there will be dogfighting.
 
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Reply #18 - Jun 21st, 2003 at 10:56pm

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I hate to be a fink but real dogfighting is "dead". Aerial dogfighting is only applicable in a convential war. Convential war, soon will also be dead. Too many countries have nukes now. Suicide bombing is the "in" thing for some. Many countries have vast armies and they don't care how many of their fighters get killed. The U.S., and other western nations cannot afford a one-on-one casualty. Does anyone know how many Iraqui soldiers got killed compared to the coalition forces during the last desert war? The U.S. I believe is going to concentrate on lethal surgical strikes using unmanned weapons as much as possible. During the WWII, two nukes caused Japan to surrender. Had they erred to surrender, a third bomb was destined for Tokyo. I wonder if Japan would have surrendered had we nuked them right after Pearl Harbor. Peace to you all.

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Reply #19 - Jun 22nd, 2003 at 2:20am

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The F-18 can "Cobra" with ease.

McAir (McDonnell-Douglas) proved it with their test article. It just requires a minor mod to the flight control software to allow the computer to permit that flight mode.

All operators of the Hornet declined the mod...it's a neat trick at airshows, but doesn't do anything in combat.

Turning radius in todays airbattle is not as important as the ability to "point the nose". No plane does this as well as a Hornet.

I should point out the Flanker is only rated for 10G in manned flight. Same as any western fighter. It don't matter what the plane can handle...the pilot is only rated for 10G. Smiley
 

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Reply #20 - Jun 22nd, 2003 at 3:56am

Ivan   Offline
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The F-18 can do the cobra, but not whitout losing a lot of height.
I haven't seen them doing it under 1000ft AGL, and the USAF disapproves the execution of the manouver on any altitude, as engine problems can develop because of the air inflow, making it a deathtrap.

Quote:
Turning radius in todays airbattle is not as important as the ability to "point the nose". No plane does this as well as a Hornet
who needs to pint the nose if your missile can look 30 degrees left and right and follows your head...
The 'Archer' is the best close-range missile on the market todat
 

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Reply #21 - Jun 23rd, 2003 at 12:23am

SilverFox441   Offline
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No Hornet has the flight control mod...so if you've seen one do it the pilot was holding the override down and flying with one hand...forces him to not use throttle to fly out of the manuever.

USAF disapproves of the manuever because they diasapprove of all stunt flying with the exception of designated air demonstration pilots. Those pilots then have to have their routine approved by higher command. Higher command only ever approves manuevers the pilots were trained for in flight school.

Archer is a very good missile, but off-axis targetting assumes that the launch aircraft will get into a position behind the target. It doesn't really do anything for you with a close in target going the other way or crossing.  Most air combat is won in the merge...so that Archer is going to be part of the burning rubble and the Hornet crew chief will be painting another SU-27 shape under the canopy. Smiley
 

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