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Is dogfighting dead? (Read 1225 times)

Reply #15 - Jun 21^st, 2003 at 2:45pm

HawkerTempest5 Offline
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Quote:

could someone explain the math in the ommision of a gun in the Typhoon, each plane will cost £50m and the UK is getting 230 something, what percentage of the overall cost will be saved? Also if they dont want to buy new guns what the hell is wrong with the Tornados guns, they wont need em sinse they will be melted down when the Typhoon comes on the scene.

As far as I can remember, the Tornado's 30mm is the same as that in the Typhoon. It's an old gun and has been in just about every RAF type since the Hunter.

Flying Legends

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Reply #16 - Jun 21^st, 2003 at 5:20pm

Ivan Offline
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no, but then again have we really seen what it is fully capable of, one way or another no other fighter will compare for a long time with the F-22, and thats what it was developed for, the cobra is a very risky manouvere to do in combat in my opinion and if the plane was fully loaded with missiles i doubt it would be a a good idea to attempt it, i am not much of an expert on russian aircraft not really my interests so you can correct that,

if i remember rightly i read somewhere about the flanker not being able to do the cobra with a fully loaded plane but again just what i have read. so again correct if i am wrong

As far as i know all the single and inline seating flankers (Su-27, Su-35/35UB, Su-30MK, Su-37) can surely do the cobra, loaded with 7 tonnes, without load, and with aerodynamically unbalanced load (Su-30, with some of the latest russian guided AG missiles). For the aside-seating ones (Su-32, Su-34) I think they can do it too as they have almost the same airframe behind the cockpit area.

The Flanker is capable of outturning ANY manned fighter aircraft in service today, and is certified to a maximum structural limit of 20G for the total airframe while unloaded.

Russian planes: IL-76 (all standard length ones), Tu-154 and Il-62, Tu-134 and An-24RV&&&&AI flightplans and repaints can be found here

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Reply #17 - Jun 21^st, 2003 at 10:11pm

denishc Offline
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Every ten years or so some goverment analyst says "Dogfighting is dead." This causes a shift in air force policy that gets sadly misproven when the next war rolls around.
As long as there are bombers or attack aircraft, either manned or UCAVs, to be attacked or protected there will be dogfighting.

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Reply #18 - Jun 21^st, 2003 at 10:56pm

Hogans_Alley Offline
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8) 8) 8) 8)

I hate to be a fink but real dogfighting is "dead". Aerial dogfighting is only applicable in a convential war. Convential war, soon will also be dead. Too many countries have nukes now. Suicide bombing is the "in" thing for some. Many countries have vast armies and they don't care how many of their fighters get killed. The U.S., and other western nations cannot afford a one-on-one casualty. Does anyone know how many Iraqui soldiers got killed compared to the coalition forces during the last desert war? The U.S. I believe is going to concentrate on lethal surgical strikes using unmanned weapons as much as possible. During the WWII, two nukes caused Japan to surrender. Had they erred to surrender, a third bomb was destined for Tokyo. I wonder if Japan would have surrendered had we nuked them right after Pearl Harbor. Peace to you all.

Hogans Alley

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Reply #19 - Jun 22^nd, 2003 at 2:20am

SilverFox441 Offline
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The F-18 can "Cobra" with ease.

McAir (McDonnell-Douglas) proved it with their test article. It just requires a minor mod to the flight control software to allow the computer to permit that flight mode.

All operators of the Hornet declined the mod...it's a neat trick at airshows, but doesn't do anything in combat.

Turning radius in todays airbattle is not as important as the ability to "point the nose". No plane does this as well as a Hornet.

I should point out the Flanker is only rated for 10G in manned flight. Same as any western fighter. It don't matter what the plane can handle...the pilot is only rated for 10G.

Steve (Silver Fox) Daly

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Reply #20 - Jun 22^nd, 2003 at 3:56am

Ivan Offline
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The F-18 can do the cobra, but not whitout losing a lot of height.
I haven't seen them doing it under 1000ft AGL, and the USAF disapproves the execution of the manouver on any altitude, as engine problems can develop because of the air inflow, making it a deathtrap.

Quote:

Turning radius in todays airbattle is not as important as the ability to "point the nose". No plane does this as well as a Hornet

who needs to pint the nose if your missile can look 30 degrees left and right and follows your head...
The 'Archer' is the best close-range missile on the market todat

Russian planes: IL-76 (all standard length ones), Tu-154 and Il-62, Tu-134 and An-24RV&&&&AI flightplans and repaints can be found here

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Reply #21 - Jun 23^rd, 2003 at 12:23am

SilverFox441 Offline
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No Hornet has the flight control mod...so if you've seen one do it the pilot was holding the override down and flying with one hand...forces him to not use throttle to fly out of the manuever.

USAF disapproves of the manuever because they diasapprove of all stunt flying with the exception of designated air demonstration pilots. Those pilots then have to have their routine approved by higher command. Higher command only ever approves manuevers the pilots were trained for in flight school.

Archer is a very good missile, but off-axis targetting assumes that the launch aircraft will get into a position behind the target. It doesn't really do anything for you with a close in target going the other way or crossing. Most air combat is won in the merge...so that Archer is going to be part of the burning rubble and the Hornet crew chief will be painting another SU-27 shape under the canopy.

Steve (Silver Fox) Daly

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