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Some information on tweaking (Read 335 times)
May 10th, 2003 at 5:19am

ramsa329   Offline
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FS-GS

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In light of some the excellent suggestions made here in this forum I would like to add a couple bits of information regarding tweaking.

As has already been pointed out FSAA (also called AA) or full screen anti-aliasing is better done through programs outside of the sim itself.

What has not been covered is the fact that each set of Nvidia Drivers responds totally differently to the application of anti-aliasing as does each video card.

Nvidia has struggled with this issue since the beginning. To make a faster driver which can handle difficult AA issues in a variety of games knowing that AA causes frame rate drops.

So for instance the 29.42 drivers are recognized as amongst the fastest but their AA is very weak(which makes them fast) so simply applying anti-aliasing of say 2x or even 4x will not have the same effect as say on the 40.xx series drivers which have  more well developed anti-aliasing programming built in but may not be as fast.

So in short each set of drivers has to be considered seperately and there is no universal answer to this issue. Plus screen refresh rate plays a role in the appearance of edges and that has to be dealt with also.

Vertical sync (the relationship between your monitor  and your game) and prerender are other factors which govern how your screen redraws itself and they do have to be set although they are pretty universal for Fs2k2.

Anisotropy which is a major part of how ground textures appear is a whole nother can of worms.

While recently Nvidia has started to give support to anisotropic settings it really is a false front. No nvidia driver can be set through NVIEW on your desktop for anisotropic settings. It's there but it does not function. Only RIVA tuner at the present time supports patches which will correct this fault in Nvidia drivers and they must be applied for them to work.

This is also true of refresh rates and digital vibrance. Although lately Nvidia has made some breakthroughs in digital vibrance.

This is also true of mipmap LOD bias which is another way of increasing clarity detail. It must be patched to work correctly and only RIVA tuner can do this at the present time.

The 41.09 drivers were the closest that Nvidia ever came to matching the power of the RIVA and other tweak utilities but they had other problems and can be unstable.

So to cut to the chase each set of drivers as I said before and each machine has to be treated seperately to truly achieve maximum results.

For those of you eager to learn more about basic tweaking ,patching, and refresh rates there is a guide available for download at AVSIM called bgttv1.zip which is an excellent starting point.

It deals with the 29.42 drivers as an example but the same general ideas can be applied to all Nvidia drivers as long as a patch exists but I caution you to disregard his other settings since he doesn't pay enough attention to AA.

There are also specialized settings that need to be applied to the Fs2002.cfg file to deal with terrain issues but that's another story.

I hope all this will be a help to you so that you can have a much more responsive and beautiful looking sim.




 
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Reply #1 - May 11th, 2003 at 3:21am
ATI_9700pro   Ex Member

 
and what about ATI??  Roll Eyes Wink
 
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Reply #2 - May 11th, 2003 at 6:12am

Fozzer   Offline
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An elderly FS 2004 addict!
Hereford. England. EGBS.

Posts: 24861
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Excellent subject matter Ramsa... Grin...!
...Made a good read, (I've saved the text).... Wink....!

Cheers mate... Grin...!
Paul.
(England).

(Ge-Force 4 Ti 4200).
Current Drivers: 4.13.01  4072
 

Dell Dimension 5000 BTX Tower. Win7 Home Edition, 32 Bit. Intel Pentium 4, dual 2.8 GHz. 2.5GB RAM, nVidia GF 9500GT 1GB. SATA 500GB + 80GB. Philips 17" LCD Monitor. Micronet ADSL Modem only. Saitek Cyborg Evo Force. FS 2004 + FSX. Briggs and Stratton Petrol Lawn Mower...Motor Bikes. Gas Cooker... and lots of musical instruments!.... ...!
Yamaha MO6,MM6,DX7,DX11,DX21,DX100,MK100,EMT10,PSR400,PSS780,Roland GW-8L v2,TR505,Casio MT-205,Korg CX3v2 dual manual,+ Leslie 760,M-Audio Prokeys88,KeyRig,Cubase,Keyfax4,Guitars,Orchestral,Baroque,Renaissance,Medieval Instruments.
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Reply #3 - May 11th, 2003 at 6:58am

RIC_BARKER   Offline
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"Shazzam"

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Hi Ramsa,

I also agree with you on the issue of Ansiotropy, it is a complete can of worms, the very reason I didn't touch on it im my posts. I have also noticed that ansiotropy becomes unavailable (or at least more difficult to impliment) with the use of some drivers, even if the card itslef is capeable, for example, nVidia's 40.72 drivers.

I think the probelm with gaining a good all round FS2002 performance benchmark is made almost impossible by the huge variety of machines it is run on, there really is no one setting that will work for everyone.

I think people consentrate too much on framerates. I personally think that anything above 50fps is wasted, it's more about the look for me, as long as it "looks" smooth, that's fine by me, I usually disregard the fps counter altogether.

Ric B.
 
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Reply #4 - May 11th, 2003 at 7:50am

Fozzer   Offline
Colonel
An elderly FS 2004 addict!
Hereford. England. EGBS.

Posts: 24861
*****
 
Quote:
Hi Ramsa,

.....I think people consentrate too much on framerates. I personally think that anything above 50fps is wasted, it's more about the look for me, as long as it "looks" smooth, that's fine by me, I usually disregard the fps counter altogether.

Ric B.


Hi Ric, Ramsa.... Grin...!
My card and drivers work fine on programs such as Quake, Unreal, etc.....fantastic effects.... Grin...!
...when moving left-right-up-and down...
...It's just the peculiarity of flight sims which force the screen to re-calculate X-Y-Z co-ordinates when banked over at an angle.... Cry...!
(The same problem was apparent in the Sinclair Spectrum computer and caused serious screen shuffling problems).... Cry...LOL...!
Straight and level flight is fine, (X-Z, Y-Z), and frame rates dropping to 8 FPS when banked over, (X-Y-Z), are acceptable for a short time..
...no problem... Grin...smooth is fine... Grin...!
LOL...!

Cheers all... Grin...!
Paul.
(England).


 

Dell Dimension 5000 BTX Tower. Win7 Home Edition, 32 Bit. Intel Pentium 4, dual 2.8 GHz. 2.5GB RAM, nVidia GF 9500GT 1GB. SATA 500GB + 80GB. Philips 17" LCD Monitor. Micronet ADSL Modem only. Saitek Cyborg Evo Force. FS 2004 + FSX. Briggs and Stratton Petrol Lawn Mower...Motor Bikes. Gas Cooker... and lots of musical instruments!.... ...!
Yamaha MO6,MM6,DX7,DX11,DX21,DX100,MK100,EMT10,PSR400,PSS780,Roland GW-8L v2,TR505,Casio MT-205,Korg CX3v2 dual manual,+ Leslie 760,M-Audio Prokeys88,KeyRig,Cubase,Keyfax4,Guitars,Orchestral,Baroque,Renaissance,Medieval Instruments.
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Reply #5 - May 11th, 2003 at 9:09am

RIC_BARKER   Offline
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"Shazzam"

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Hmm,

Interesting that Fozzer. I do know that some guages can eat up alot of power when they are forced to rotate, I remember FS2000 being patched to fix exactly what you have just described. Is this on any particular aircraft/panel?

Ric B.
 
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Reply #6 - May 11th, 2003 at 12:10pm

Fozzer   Offline
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An elderly FS 2004 addict!
Hereford. England. EGBS.

Posts: 24861
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Quote:
Hmm,

Interesting that Fozzer. I do know that some guages can eat up alot of power when they are forced to rotate, I remember FS2000 being patched to fix exactly what you have just described. Is this on any particular aircraft/panel?

Ric B.


Hi Ric... Grin...!

It's the problem that all computers have in displaying information on the screen.
If you are stationary all the computer has to do is to refresh the horizontal and vertical scan quickly.
If you move to the left the pixels all have to be shuffled to the right, a simple, quick, machine code calculation.
The same applies if you move to the right, or up or down. It's a simple machine code "rotate" instruction.
Now...
As soon as you move to the left AND down, (as in banking), the instruction has to be calculated TWICE, once for left and once for down, alternately.
This DOUBLES the time it takes for each pixel movement, and therefore the screen refresh takes twice as long... Cry...!
It was particularly noticeable in the Spectrum as the colour screen was made up of 8X8 pixel squares and without some very clever coding these 8X8 squares shuffling sideways AND down, produced some alarming effects... Shocked...!
LOL...!
...and all of this is just to display the outside scenery...
..thats without all the rotating hands on all the gauges...
...phew... Roll Eyes...
LOL...!
The modern processors and graphics cards do a particularly fine job of all these complicated calculations.. Grin....
(I still love my trusty old Spectrum and it's machine code tho')..... Grin... Grin... Grin..!

Cheers all...
Paul.
(England).

P.S.  With a screen resolution of 1024 X 768, (multiply those two numbers together, (my little calculator exploded trying to display it), that's the number of pixels on the screen. Now imagine having to shuffle EACH one, starting from the top left of the screen to the bottom right of the screen, and that's just ONE screen refresh...
...it's mind boggling.... Shocked...!
LOL..LOL..LOL..!

 

Dell Dimension 5000 BTX Tower. Win7 Home Edition, 32 Bit. Intel Pentium 4, dual 2.8 GHz. 2.5GB RAM, nVidia GF 9500GT 1GB. SATA 500GB + 80GB. Philips 17" LCD Monitor. Micronet ADSL Modem only. Saitek Cyborg Evo Force. FS 2004 + FSX. Briggs and Stratton Petrol Lawn Mower...Motor Bikes. Gas Cooker... and lots of musical instruments!.... ...!
Yamaha MO6,MM6,DX7,DX11,DX21,DX100,MK100,EMT10,PSR400,PSS780,Roland GW-8L v2,TR505,Casio MT-205,Korg CX3v2 dual manual,+ Leslie 760,M-Audio Prokeys88,KeyRig,Cubase,Keyfax4,Guitars,Orchestral,Baroque,Renaissance,Medieval Instruments.
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Reply #7 - May 11th, 2003 at 12:50pm

ramsa329   Offline
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FS-GS

Posts: 1928
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Fozzer Ric et al

Fozzer your problem is exactly why I wrote this post. It would be close to impossible to "fix " this without actually running a series of tests on your machine to see why this is happening.

One general area often overlooked is the issue of screen refresh which may not be as much of a visible factor in other games as it is in Fs2k2.

Without getting into too much technical lingo you have to patch the refresh rate to change it as the default of 60 HZ will  not be sufficient to overcome the screen redraw problem.

You cannot change this through windows even if you go through the steps of going into properties than advanced than monitor and you reset the default to say 75 or 85 and windows says you did it you didn't because the second you reboot it will go back to default while still showing you a different number.

The same is true of trying to change the refresh rate through Nvidia properties but in this case each set of drivers is a little different and some will carry out the refresh rate change and others will not.

Riva tuner offers the best patch support for Nvidia drivers but not all Nvidia drivers can be patched.

Ric is correct in asking you if this occurs in all planes. Gauges and panels can have a strong effect on what is happening on your screen which is why I always test tweaks and changes on a default plane flying the default flight from Meigs with no AI or clouds, position indicators turned off and never with frame rate counters.

So in short we come back to the same place I would have to know which card you're using which drivers you have, which OS, which version of DX and how much memory and what kind of memory.

As to ATI cards my experience and what I have been able to learn from users is that overall the cards are excellent and will sustain high levels of tweaking without causing frame rate drops BUT AND THIS IS A BIG BUT the drivers are very unstable and there have been numerous instances of sim failures for unknown reasons and OS failures as well.

It has also been my experience that while ATI definately supports higher frame rates even with heavy tweaking this does not guarantee that you will have better view to distance or less anti-aliasing problems or screen refresh issues. They must be set-up and aligned with your OS and machine just like Nvidia.

One bit of advise that I can give is to use the latest build of ATI drivers and consoles since earlier drivers caused Direct 3D acceleration to be turned off which most users would never see unless they were to run dxdiag. So everything would look normal but in fact was not working at all.

Again ATI I would have to investigate each machine individually to truly gauge whether the machine is performing as it should.

Hope this in some way can be useful.  


 
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Reply #8 - May 11th, 2003 at 1:15pm

RIC_BARKER   Offline
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"Shazzam"

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Posts: 842
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Yep, sounds about right to me mate!

Ahhh, the days of the Spectrum huh? I had a 16k, a 48k and 2 128k's. I remember tyring to program that thing in Basic back then, I wrote a program to teach myself times table.

My calculator says that for each 1280x1024x32 RGBA frame, the data output is 41943040 bytes, or 419.4MB per frame, and that's just raw image data. At 25fps, that's over 10Gig's a second........no wonder they have mega bandwidth RAM on these modern cards.  Shocked

I wonder how long it would take a Spectrum to render that?  Grin

Ric B
 
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Reply #9 - May 11th, 2003 at 1:35pm

Fozzer   Offline
Colonel
An elderly FS 2004 addict!
Hereford. England. EGBS.

Posts: 24861
*****
 
Quote:
My calculator says that for each 1280x1024x32 RGBA frame, the data output is 41943040 bytes, or 419.4MB per frame, and that's just raw image data. At 25fps, that's over 10Gig's a second........no wonder they have mega bandwidth RAM on these modern cards.  Shocked

I wonder how long it would take a Spectrum to render that?  Grin

Ric B


....I reckon about three weeks Ric.. Cry....!

LOL...LOL...LOL...!

Cheers mate...
Paul.
(England)

P.S. I've still got my ZX80, ZX81, 3 rubbery 48K's, and 3 Speccy plus's with all the add-on bits.
One of them is permantly plugged into my spare 'Tele.. Grin...!
Oh, joy.... Wink...!

P.P.S. ..I still program them in Zilog Z80 Machine code, even now... Shocked...!!!
(A lost art in modern computers, it's all C++ "stuff" now)... Cry...LOL...!


 

Dell Dimension 5000 BTX Tower. Win7 Home Edition, 32 Bit. Intel Pentium 4, dual 2.8 GHz. 2.5GB RAM, nVidia GF 9500GT 1GB. SATA 500GB + 80GB. Philips 17" LCD Monitor. Micronet ADSL Modem only. Saitek Cyborg Evo Force. FS 2004 + FSX. Briggs and Stratton Petrol Lawn Mower...Motor Bikes. Gas Cooker... and lots of musical instruments!.... ...!
Yamaha MO6,MM6,DX7,DX11,DX21,DX100,MK100,EMT10,PSR400,PSS780,Roland GW-8L v2,TR505,Casio MT-205,Korg CX3v2 dual manual,+ Leslie 760,M-Audio Prokeys88,KeyRig,Cubase,Keyfax4,Guitars,Orchestral,Baroque,Renaissance,Medieval Instruments.
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