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Poll
Question:
Which is the most immortal war plane?
Sopwith Camel
0 (0.0%)
Fokker Dr.1 Triplane
1 (4.0%)
B-17 Flying Fortress
2 (8.0%)
P-51 Mustang
5 (20.0%)
Spitfire
11 (44.0%)
Bf109
0 (0.0%)
F-86 Sabre
0 (0.0%)
Other (Please Explain)
6 (24.0%)
Total votes: 25
« Created by:
RichieB16
on: May 2
nd
, 2003 at 8:18pm »
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1
Most Immortal War Plane (Read 1734 times)
May 2
nd
, 2003 at 8:18pm
RichieB16
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January 27, 1967
Oregon
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Posts: 4408
OK, recently I read an interesting article in a magizine (i can't remember which one) but it talked about what they thought were the Top 10 Most Immortal War Planes of All-Time. So, I thought I would ask you guys since many of you are experts on this; it seems fun to see what you're opinions are. I decided to not include modern planes on the list (but if you really think they belong on there-thats what the "Other" catagory is for). Anyway, what do you think?
Personally, I'm going to selected the Fokker Dr.1 simply because when I think of air combat-I think back to the origins of it (WWI). As a result, I see an infamous red triplane chasing the british and french aircraft out of the sky. So, my vote goes to the Dr.1.
Anyway, what do you think?
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Reply #1 -
May 3
rd
, 2003 at 2:25am
ozzy72
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Hmm, I think most people will vote for the Spitfire as it was a symbol of our resistance to Germany. It seems to me that this is hardly an objective survey as it comes down to which war you are interested in, me I'm a WWII buff. But I love the Camel too... And the DR.I. was a fascinating machine.
Ozzy
There are two types of aeroplane, Spitfires and everything else that wishes it was a Spitfire!
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Reply #2 -
May 3
rd
, 2003 at 6:27am
HawkerTempest5
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Hawker Tempest MK V
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A predictable vote from me! The Vickers Supermarine Spitfire.
Flying Legends
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Reply #3 -
May 3
rd
, 2003 at 7:09am
Woodlouse2002
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I like jam.
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Well although the Dr-1 was an amazing aircraft it was copied from a British design and it wasn't that effective over all.
I think the Spitfire is going to win this. Its the most recognisable name in the world of aviation. I mean, what else could it be?
Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #4 -
May 3
rd
, 2003 at 7:10am
ATI_9700pro
Ex Member
the SR-71,because it flies too high and too fast for every SAM and interceptor of the whole world.
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Reply #5 -
May 3
rd
, 2003 at 7:20am
Craig.
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the mig 31 had the ability to intercept the SR71, thats why they stopped the spy flights over the soviet union when it came into service
i'd say the A-10 seems to be pretty invincible, look at the huge amounts of damage it can sustain
in the old planes though it has to be the spitfire
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Reply #6 -
May 3
rd
, 2003 at 12:12pm
denishc
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Let's not forget the P-40. It fought in China, across the Pacific and in the deserts of North Africa. During the dark days of 1942 the P-40 held the line for the allies and many allied aces got their start in one.
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Reply #7 -
May 3
rd
, 2003 at 12:48pm
ATI_9700pro
Ex Member
...and it had been shot down by german Bf-109...
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Reply #8 -
May 3
rd
, 2003 at 1:49pm
Rifleman
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" Full size A/C are just
overgrown models ! "
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Well now.........with the short time span from idea to first flight and then all the upgrade improvements, I think the biggest advantadge for a warplane was the ability of the P-51 with its laminar flow wing to escort heavies from London to Berlin and back, is definately right up there with the best, but this is not to take away from the boys who flew the F-6F missions in the Pacific theatre........wow, could that bird take punishment and bring back a highly trained pilot. And what of the A-6M's......with such light weight for maneuvrability and good climb ability, this one can't be discounted either........then there is the air-superiority of the F-15 Eagle with its power/weight ratio in excess of unity.......dreamed of for years and then attained in 1974, to the sheer delight of pilots all over.......and now the super-cruise of the Raptor will do the same once again with another giant leap for the fighter jocks...... Ahem, ....OK .....I see its getting too much now......would it be easier to identify the weaker of the warbirds (Brewster Buffalo), as there are too many good ones to mention............. Macci, Polikarpov, Bell, Dewoitine, Grumman, Mitsubishi, Commonwealth Aircraft, Yak, all randomly named but many, many more to be called to center stage in their day...............
If you really are asking for an all-time best, then the task is going to make for some interesting posts on this thread.........but to once again borrow a term from my favourite high shcool teacher, " you can't compare apples to oranges" ...and that is what you do when you ask for a timeless "best of all".........
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Reply #9 -
May 3
rd
, 2003 at 2:25pm
Ivan
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only like Russian aircraft
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for each side there is one
WW2:
Germans: Fw190D-9 AKA 'Dora-nine', but also the Me262
English: Spitfire and Lancaster
Americans: P-38, Avenger and F4U in the pacific, B-17 and P-51 in europe
Japanese: A6M Zero
Russians: Il-2, Yak-3 and the fast twin engined bomber (Pe-2 or something like that)
Korea:
Mig-15 and the F-86
Vietnam:
US: F-4, A-6, F-111
VC: MiG-21
Afghanistan (1979-1984)
Su-25, Mi-24
Gulf war:
F-15E
Biggest Cold-war icon aircraft:
Bombers: Tu-95(and all variants) and the BUFF(B-52)
Fighters: F-104 and the MiG-21
And y2Cragie: the MiG-31 was built as an upgrade to the MiG-25. The MiG-25 was built to intercept the Sr-71 (as the DoD wants you to believe) but only the recon variants managed to get to speeds above MACH 3. engines had to be replaced afterwards.
Russian planes:
IL-76 (all standard length ones)
,
Tu-154 and Il-62
,
Tu-134
and
An-24RV
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Reply #10 -
May 3
rd
, 2003 at 2:35pm
Craig.
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thanks for the info ivan i was going on a recent thing in an aviation mag we have here. i knew about the engine thingy but not the upgrade from the 25
learn something new every day
you left out the F-14 prob the best interceptor built(which if i remember rightly was built for cold war intercepts of russian bombers?)
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Reply #11 -
May 3
rd
, 2003 at 4:10pm
Woodlouse2002
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I like jam.
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Guys.
Think about this. Don't go for your favorite planes here.
If someone said to you "name a War plane" then what would you name? I reckon in 90% of cases you will get the answer "Spitfire". Thus proving that it is truly immortal.
Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #12 -
May 3
rd
, 2003 at 5:19pm
Tequila Sunrise
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Nunquam non paratus
Glasgow Scotland
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probably the Spitfire or Harrier
If someone with multiple personality disorder threatens suicide, is it a hostage situation?
Thou shalt maintain thine airspeed lest the ground shalt rise up and smite thee
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Reply #13 -
May 3
rd
, 2003 at 9:51pm
Rifleman
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" Full size A/C are just
overgrown models ! "
Tropical island in the Pacific
Posts: 6622
Quote:
The MiG-25 was built to intercept the Sr-71
Check out that info once again.........you may find that the Foxbat was developed to intercept the proposed XB-70 Valkyrie........once the B-70 program faded the MiG 25 was continued with ................. 8)
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/mig25/index.shtml
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Reply #14 -
May 3
rd
, 2003 at 10:54pm
Brett_Henderson
Ex Member
EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
BE AN NDB
Gender:
By definition of the question (immortal)(will not die)
The old B-52...
Is there even a close 2nd ???
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Reply #15 -
May 4
th
, 2003 at 1:25am
Rifleman
Offline
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" Full size A/C are just
overgrown models ! "
Tropical island in the Pacific
Posts: 6622
Quote:
By definition of the question (immortal)(will not die)
The old B-52...
Is there even a close 2nd ???
I would think that the B-52 isn't in the running by your definition, its still a young pup
........there are some DC-3's still in active service and they are almost 70 yrs of age now
Quote:
12/17/1935
First flight of Douglas DC-3 airliner. The DC-3, the first aircraft to make money carrying passengers rather than mail, was introduced. It seated 21 passengers. Ninety percent of air traffic was flying on DC-3's by 1940.
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Reply #16 -
May 4
th
, 2003 at 2:20am
Scorpiоn
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Take it easy!
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Despite my hate of liquid-cooled engined aircraft, I have to give it to the Mustang. I've seen the typical know-nothing kind of guy who takes no interest in WWII or aviation, upon my saying 'Mustang' he'll say, "Oh, that old airplane?"
The Devil's Advocate.
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Reply #17 -
May 4
th
, 2003 at 7:36am
Crumbso
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Even if just for the sound of it (so sort of graceful yet powerful and that kinda half whistle as it passes.) The spitfire is definately king.
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Reply #18 -
May 4
th
, 2003 at 8:58pm
Brett_Henderson
Ex Member
EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
BE AN NDB
Gender:
Quote:
I would think that the B-52 isn't in the running by your definition, its still a young pup ........there are some DC-3's still in active service and they are almost 70 yrs of age now
I suppose some DC-3's are still in active military "service" somewhere ???
But the B-52 has been a front-line heavy bomber for the worlds biggest / most powerful Air Force, for some 40 years,, (with more to come)
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Reply #19 -
May 4
th
, 2003 at 9:15pm
robbo1
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im not valued anymore...
im gold
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I say a plane that surprisingly hasnt been mentioned... one of the most versatile planes ever produced, and is still in production to this day... nearly fifty years since the first model rolled off the line. The C-130 Hercules is one of the greatest military aircraft of all time.
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Reply #20 -
May 4
th
, 2003 at 9:44pm
Deputy
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Because of one person, the Red Baron. . . .
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Reply #21 -
May 4
th
, 2003 at 11:12pm
Blade
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The most immortal one is the B-52, its been flying more than half the time there has been powered flight. Its still in service with the USAF, and more upgrades are on the way. Feasably the B-52 could stay in service till 2024!
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Reply #22 -
May 5
th
, 2003 at 12:14am
Professor Brensec
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Can't you give me a couple
more inches, Adam?
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Quote:
Let's not forget the P-40. It fought in China, across the Pacific and in the deserts of North Africa. During the dark days of 1942 the P-40 held the line for the allies and many allied aces got their start in one.
As it's my favourite plane, and the fact that it was the best plane Australia had until the P51 came our way I must agree with my friend here.
It fought from the first day till the last (in the South and South East Pacific) and from pretty much day one in the desert and France. It was truely everywhere.
When you consider that most people and articles are concerned more with it's "shortcomings" than all the accolades which it earnt (I think it was the first American fighter to shoot down an enemy plane in WWII at Pearl Harbour). As my friend said, it held the line against a supposwedly superior plane in the Pacific and China until the States could come up with something better.
Besides all this - it's the best looking fighter there is, including the Spitfire.
Is it not beautiful?
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Reply #23 -
May 5
th
, 2003 at 10:05am
ozzy72
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She is lovely indeed Brensec, second only to a Spitfire or Mosquito in my heart. I still get great pleasure from watching this underated warbird doing her stuff.
Ozzy
There are two types of aeroplane, Spitfires and everything else that wishes it was a Spitfire!
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Reply #24 -
May 5
th
, 2003 at 10:31am
Hagar
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My Spitfire Girl
Costa Geriatrica
Posts: 33159
I've been following this with interest. It seems most people are confusing the issue. The poll is entitled "Most Immortal Warplane". So what does this mean? To me, it's not the best warplane, your own personal favourite or the longest serving military aircraft in history. It's a single aircraft type that had the most impact & is embedded in the memory for eternity.
One type cannot possibly fit the bill as different aircraft will obviously mean more to some nations than others. The Spitfire is the only possible choice for the UK. Although not completely true it's associated with our salvation during our darkest hour. It has a place in history along with Sir Francis Drake & the defeat of the Spanish Armada. There aren't many people in these islands who have never seen or heard of a Spitfire.
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Reply #25 -
May 5
th
, 2003 at 5:47pm
RichieB16
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January 27, 1967
Oregon
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Posts: 4408
Quote:
I've been following this with interest. It seems most people are confusing the issue. The poll is entitled "Most Immortal Warplane". So what does this mean? To me, it's not the best warplane, your own personal favourite or the longest serving military aircraft in history. It's a single aircraft type that had the most impact & is embedded in the memory for eternity.
Yeah, that was the point I was trying to make. Which aircraft has made the most impact in our "memory." This is why I chose the Dr.1, because I think of the Red Baron when ever I think of areal combat.
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Reply #26 -
May 5
th
, 2003 at 6:07pm
Oz
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The Dr.1 refined the idea of 'dogfighting'
The Spitfire
and
Hurricane brought victory to England during the Battle of Britain
The Mustang helped the allies advance in the european theater by destroying german facilities and finishing off the Luftwaffe and was used by designers to examine how swept-wings could affect aircraft speed and performance
The P-47 is another plane which helped bring the defeat of the Nazi war machine (i dunno why nobody's said that)
The F-86 revolutionized the airplane by introducing a new type of engine -- the jet engine.
And id have to say that the F-117 and B-2 were the planes that introduced stealth to the world.
So in a way, all planes created in the history of aviation have affected major world events -- be it in the 1900's, 40's, 50's, 60's and so on, therefore making it virtually impossible to name the most immortal one is my opinion
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Reply #27 -
May 6
th
, 2003 at 8:29am
ATI_9700pro
Ex Member
Quote:
The Dr.1 refined the idea of 'dogfighting'
The Spitfire
and
Hurricane brought victory to England during the Battle of Britain
nope. if the germans had continued bombing facilities and air fields instead of towns,the RAF would have lost the bob.
Quote:
The Mustang helped the allies advance in the european theater by destroying german facilities and finishing off the Luftwaffe and was used by designers to examine how swept-wings could affect aircraft speed and performance
The P-47 is another plane which helped bring the defeat of the Nazi war machine (i dunno why nobody's said that).
you can't say that. there were many other planes ,like the spitfire,which helped the allies advance. and the luftwaffe had a great lack of pilots ,so the were not able to attack every allied fighter over germany or france. and finally,they also fought over russia.
Quote:
The F-86 revolutionized the airplane by introducing a new type of engine -- the jet engine.
wrong again. the f-86 was the best plane of the korean war,but the Me 262 was the first successful war plane with jet engines - already during WW2.
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Reply #28 -
May 6
th
, 2003 at 11:54am
Oz
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Now wait a sec.
Quote:
nope. if the germans had continued bombing facilities and air fields instead of towns,the RAF would have lost the bob.
ATI, hello?? Did you actually analize what i said ???, i did NOT specify what you said in my sentence. What i said is true, they did bring victory to britain and you cant say otherwise.
Quote:
you can't say that. there were many other planes ,like the spitfire,which helped the allies advance. and the luftwaffe had a great lack of pilots ,so the were not able to attack every allied fighter over germany or france. and finally,they also fought over russia.
Now look here i was trying to talk about some of the planes mentioned in the poll to get some ideas and give them credit for something, im not dumb, there were many other fine planes that helped the allies. And why did you say "there were many other planes ,like the spitfire,which helped the allies advance." I put down the P-47 there too. I know the Spit and Hurricane did a lot to help the advance but their real glory came in the Battle of Britain.
Quote:
wrong again. the f-86 was the best plane of the korean war,but the Me 262 was the first successful war plane with jet engines - already during WW2.
No, you're wrong. The 262 however is not the first plane to have a jet engine, according to some sources it was the Meteor and the first German jet was some Heinkel prototype that never entered production. (and lets not forget the komet...but thats rocket powered)
Successful?? The Me-262 did go operational HOWEVER its performance lacked a lot, as a matter of fact i believe only 1 spitfire was shot down by a 262. The F-86 gave stunnning performance and achieved a high kill rate in korea. In a way, The 'American' jet age started out with the F-86 and paved the way for more advanced fighters such as the F4 and F-15. And the Me-262 NEVER optained all the glory that was given to other great fighters in WWII.
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Last Edit: May 6
th
, 2003 at 2:01pm by Oz
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Reply #29 -
May 6
th
, 2003 at 2:57pm
Hagar
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My Spitfire Girl
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Posts: 33159
Hey, steady on Oz. However unfair this might be on the Hurricane, the Spitfire is the symbol of the RAF victory in the BoB. It became a legend in the hearts of the British people which I believe is unique in the history of aviation. It's generally accepted by historians that if the Luftwaffe had continued attacking fighter bases & radar installations instead of London the outcome might well have been completely different.
ATI is correct about the Me 262. It was the first
operational
military jet in service. Most were used as bombers on Hitler's insistence so its potential as a fighter was never really assessed.
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Reply #30 -
May 6
th
, 2003 at 3:11pm
Oz
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I dont really have an argument on the Hurricane, although it was built in more numbers than the Spit. (both are great planes though and both have their place in aviation) I read somewhere that the Meteor went operational some months or weeks before the 262, but maybe its wrong. I mean, both Germany and Britain were working very hard on jet development at around the same time. However the 262 was not the first jet.
Quote:
The first jet engines were developed in the thirties by Frank Whittle in England and by Hans Joachim Pbst von Ohain in Germany. On August 27, 1939, the world's first jet-propelled aircraft flew with the Heinkel/Ohain engine He S3B near Rostock in northern Germany.
But that S3B never entered major production.
Quote:
It's generally accepted by historians that if the Luftwaffe had continued attacking fighter bases & radar installations instead of London the outcome might well have been completely different.
Oh i know and fully agree on that, as a matter of fact i didnt make an argument against that in my previous post. I simply stated that the RAF spits and hurricanes brought victory to Britain and in no way did i mention anything involving the Luftwaffe's bombing airbases.
Boy this has gotten outta hand, i was only saying in my original post that basically there cannot be an 'immortal aircraft' because all have earned their place in history and all have affected world events.
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Reply #31 -
May 6
th
, 2003 at 3:17pm
Ivan
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No, I'm NOT Russian, I
only like Russian aircraft
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The 'first jet powered aircraft' differs according to the rules you make for it
if you count rocket engines as jet engines, or if you take the aircraft as a guideline (instead of the engine) you will nearly allways arrive at hte same aircraft: the Bi-2 and it's variants.
It managed to get a top speed of 400kmh in the first prototype(Bi-1), the production version could get to speeds around 600kmh
Link to info of Bi-1
http://angela.ctrl-c.liu.se/misc/ram/bi.html
The other 'jet' powered aircraft in 1943 was the '302'
http://angela.ctrl-c.liu.se/misc/ram/302p.html
The amount of these aircraft in action is unknown, as is the number of the 'project 302'
Rumours exist about a Bi-PVRD, which was powered by 2 ramjets. it has about the same looks as the Bi-1, but with ramjet engines on the wings
The Me-262 was succesfull in its not-so-quite-intended role as bomber destroyer
Russian planes:
IL-76 (all standard length ones)
,
Tu-154 and Il-62
,
Tu-134
and
An-24RV
&&&&AI flightplans and repaints can be found
here
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Reply #32 -
May 6
th
, 2003 at 4:09pm
Hagar
Offline
Colonel
My Spitfire Girl
Costa Geriatrica
Posts: 33159
Quote:
Boy this has gotten outta hand, i was only saying in my original post that basically there cannot be an 'immortal aircraft' because all have earned their place in history and all have affected world events.
Oz. I agree on both points. Some people tend to get a little emotional on these subjects for some reason.
As I pointed out earlier the poll is about immortality. I'm not sure quite what Richie meant by this but looked at on a purely historical basis not many aircraft have become a legend in the minds of the general public.
Quote:
The 'first jet powered aircraft' differs according to the rules you make for it
if you count rocket engines as jet engines, or if you take the aircraft as a guideline (instead of the engine) you will nearly allways arrive at hte same aircraft: the Bi-2 and it's variants.
It managed to get a top speed of 400kmh in the first prototype(Bi-1), the production version could get to speeds around 600kmh
Thanks again for some interesting info Ivan. I should have qualified my statement by making it clear that the Me 262 was the first operational
turbojet
aircraft.
http://www.gl.iit.edu/wadc/features/aircraft/ME-262/
This does not mean the first turbojet to fly.
Quote:
The world's first operational turbojet aircraft, the ME-262 was first flown as a pure jet on July 18, 1942, it proved much faster than conventional airplanes. Development problems, Allied bombings, and cautious Luftwaffe leadership contributed to delays in quantity production. In late 1943, Adolf Hitler agreed to mass production, but insisted the aircraft be used primarily as a fighter-bomber.
PS. The only other warplane legend I can think of is the 3 Sea Gladiator biplanes
Faith, Hope & Charity
that for some 2 months in 1940 were the only aircraft available to defend Malta from constant air attack by the Reggia Aeronautica.
There might well be similar stories I don't know about.
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Reply #33 -
May 7
th
, 2003 at 6:19am
Professor Brensec
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Can't you give me a couple
more inches, Adam?
SYDNEY - AUSTRALIA
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In my absence for two days, it seems this thread has become a little emotional. There would even seem to be some confusion over the meaning of the topic "Immortal".
Immortal to me, means the plane that has made an "impact" on the psyche of a people. The plane that people know as
"the plane that did that"
or
"the plane that save this"
.
In this case it's going to be a different plane for different people for different reasons.
For the Brits, it will always be the Spitfire or the Hurricane, because of their role in the BoB.
For the Eighth Air Force, it would be the P51D. It enabled them to take their bombers into Germany (relatively) without fear of the beatings they used to take from the enemy fighters after the shorter range planes had to turn back. The presence of the P51D would have been an "immortal" comfort for those blokes.
In Australia, our Wirraway wasn't much to speak of (it was a Harvard Texan). So, we had to rely on the P40, and our flyers used them with great skill and to great advantage in New Guinea, Burma, Malaya etc and the North African Desert, in much the same way as the Flying Tigers in China. They are "Immortal" to us.
In fact here is the P40 IMMORTALISED in the Australian War Memorial in Canberra. (Sorry boys, I just love posting this picture.
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