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A question for our British friends out there. (Read 2230 times)
Apr 25th, 2003 at 12:57pm

denishc   Offline
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  Now the the war in Iraq is winding down I have a question for our British friends.  The shape of the M-16 and AK-47 rifles make them easy to identify, but what is the weapon that I've seen the Britihs infantry men carring in all the news footaage?  It resembles more of a sub-machine gun than a rifle.  Who manufactures it and what size round does it chamber?

  One more thing to our British friends out there........ thanks for all your help.......... from an American.
 
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Reply #1 - Apr 25th, 2003 at 1:10pm

Craig.   Offline
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http://www.army.mod.uk/equipment/pw/pw_lsw.htm

try that it has all the weapons used by the british infantry
you could be on about the SA80 though, but my knowledge is limited when it comes to the army, i am an airforce person myself hope it helps some
 
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Reply #2 - Apr 25th, 2003 at 1:13pm

HawkerTempest5   Offline
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Craig is correct, the standard British rifle is the SA80. It uses the same size round as the M-16 and I understand that the clips are interchangeable.
I'm not sure who makes them, but Heckler and Koch did the recent mods on them.
 

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Reply #3 - Apr 25th, 2003 at 1:25pm

BFMF   Offline
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I always wondered what the standard British rifle was
 
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Reply #4 - Apr 25th, 2003 at 1:31pm

Fozzer   Offline
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Quote:
I always wondered what the standard British rifle was


In my days* it used to be the Lee Enfield bolt action .303 rifle.
The standard issue for the Army.
(Very heavy)...!

Cheers...
Paul...(ex R.E.M.E.)

*...over the top lads, let's get the Hun... Smiley...!

(England).

 

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Reply #5 - Apr 25th, 2003 at 1:44pm

Smoke2much   Offline
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Are you sure it wasn't the brown bess Fozzer?

Will Wink
 

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Reply #6 - Apr 25th, 2003 at 1:52pm

Fozzer   Offline
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Quote:
Are you sure it wasn't the brown bess Fozzer?

Will Wink


I don't think so Will...
They'd just changed over from muskets when I joined up just after the Battle of Waterloo... Roll Eyes...!
LOL...!

Cheers...
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(England)
 

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Reply #7 - Apr 25th, 2003 at 2:34pm

Crumbso   Offline
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Its actually made by good old lee-enfield.

Some bad teething problems at first but the recent H&K (also british owned by Bae) mods make it a damn good rifle.

Thats me out.
 
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Reply #8 - Apr 25th, 2003 at 2:47pm

Fozzer   Offline
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Quote:
Its actually made by good old lee-enfield.


Lee Enfield... Wink...!
The same firm which made my first motor bike in 1950, the Royal Enfield 350 Bullet.... Grin...!
...the motif on the timing cover was of three Lee Enfield rifles...!

Cheers...
Paul.
(England).

 

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Reply #9 - Apr 25th, 2003 at 3:17pm

Woodlouse2002   Offline
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Well Fozzer you are fortunate. The Lee-Enfield is the finest bolt action in the world.

The SA-80 or L85A2 was an extreemly reliable weapon when hand made. Unfortunatly when mass produces by machines it lost it quality and became notoriously unreliable. Fortunatly the MOD have plans to replace the SA-80 in the near future.

Its just lucky that we own the the second best gun manufacturer in the world (best I consider to be good old FN makers of the .50 cal machine gun and the Five Seven which is a damn sexy pistol) that means that we should be able to get a fine assult rifle to replace the SA-80...
 

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #10 - Apr 25th, 2003 at 3:33pm

Tequila Sunrise   Offline
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I've heard that even after the mods its still a peice of sh!t, I've seen the damn things melt after firing 20 rounds on semi-auto Angry
 

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Reply #11 - Apr 25th, 2003 at 3:42pm

ozzy72   Offline
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Denish, as was answered the SA80 'bullpup' rifle is the one you are interested in, it is replacing the L1A1 SLR (self loading rifle), personally I prefer the SLR (a derivative of the FN FAL, only not capable of fully automatic).
There is also a heavy barrelled version called the LSW (Light Support Weapon), basically the same, just with a bipod and longer barrel. This will replace the FN MAG (L7A2) GPMG (General Purpose Machine Gun), and the Enfield Bren gun (a personal favourite, and the best light machine gun ever made, accurate to 800m).
If you want a great infantry weapon however you can't beat the M203 (M16 with a 40mm grenade launcher attatchment, and one of my favourite toys, after the H&K MP5).
I find the SA80 to be about as useful as a chocolate oven glove unless it is cleaned after every magazine shot off! It goes wrong far too easily, and bits break or fall off of it.... Expensive piece of junk!

Ozzy
 

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Reply #12 - Apr 25th, 2003 at 3:49pm

BFMF   Offline
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With all my gaming 'experience', I prefer the M-16 Grin
 
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Reply #13 - Apr 25th, 2003 at 4:08pm

Crumbso   Offline
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I've done my BTS with the SA80 and would like to say I think its very good. Comfortable and accurate.
 
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Reply #14 - Apr 25th, 2003 at 5:38pm

Woodlouse2002   Offline
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Well I know an exmarine who served in Oman who says that the only really good assult rifle is the AK47. The M16 is good but not that good. Especially as the new versions don't have Automatic fire.

I personally reckon the the Bren gun will stay in service for a few years yet. The long barreled SA-80 is just as notorious and doesn't have interchangeable barrels so it will melt really quickly.

Giving my "gaming" experiance little beats the Thompson. Grin Its a good chunky sub-machine gun and not much goes wrong with it.

The army should really go back to the SLR. It was powerful (7.62mm) and accurate and reliable. The fact that is only semi auto means nothing. You can pull the trigger about 3 times per second and thats all you need. Atleast with semi auto you actually take time to aim. They can save the money for the guns on the ammo they'll save!
 

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #15 - Apr 25th, 2003 at 6:35pm

Jaffa   Offline
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The AK-47 is a rugged weapon.  This is shown by the fact that terrorists tote them around without maintenance and they still work! Wink

U.S. Colt arms seem to be pretty good.

Personally I like the H&K G36 series for rifles. 

Mp5 for SMG.

USP for pistol.
 
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Reply #16 - Apr 26th, 2003 at 4:49am

HawkerTempest5   Offline
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One think I noticed from watching Gulf War 2 on Sky news and seeing pictures in the papers was that a number of British troops, mostly Royal Marines, actually had M-16's and 203's.
Now I know that the SAS and SBS use these but I just wondered weather the Royal Marines had access to these or if they did some sort of "in the field" deal with their US partnres!
 

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Reply #17 - Apr 26th, 2003 at 6:07am

Woodlouse2002   Offline
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Quote:
One think I noticed from watching Gulf War 2 on Sky news and seeing pictures in the papers was that a number of British troops, mostly Royal Marines, actually had M-16's and 203's.
Now I know that the SAS and SBS use these but I just wondered weather the Royal Marines had access to these or if they did some sort of "in the field" deal with their US partnres!

They were probably special forces. If you looked you could see quite a few SBS kicking about with there M16's and long hair.
 

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #18 - Apr 26th, 2003 at 7:54am

ozzy72   Offline
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Actually Woodie the British military has had M16s since the 60s with the campaign in Malaysia. At first they were only issued to special forces, but by the time of the Falklands war (1982) the Royal Marines had a number of them, and the Paras I believe also did.
So when you see these photos in magazines claiming that the guy with the M16 must be SAS or SBS, they are usually well off the mark! The journalists wouldn't be able to get into the areas that SF are operating in. Its just hype.

Ozzy
 

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Reply #19 - Apr 26th, 2003 at 10:59am

Woodlouse2002   Offline
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I know all that Ozzy. The way to tell an SF soldier apart is by his hair. If its not regulation then he'll be SAS/SBS.
 

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #20 - Apr 26th, 2003 at 1:25pm

denishc   Offline
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  I'm surprised this topic has drawn so many replies...... thanks to all for the answer to my question and thanks to y2cragie for the British forces website.

  One more question while we're on this thread, I know in the military there's been a push to got to the smaller size caliber round, the 5.56 cal.  Along with the U.S. and England I believe France has change over as well. Russia too has gone over to the smaller size caliber for use in their AK-74, but I'm not sure of its size.
  My question is has Germany also made the switch to the 5.56 round?  If so what who's rifle does the German army carry?
 
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Reply #21 - Apr 26th, 2003 at 2:41pm

Craig.   Offline
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"KSK operators have access to the entire arsenal of German military weapons, and a large number of weapons purchased exclusively for their use. These weapons are known to include the following: HK G36 5.56mm assault rifles, in both carbine and SAW versions with tactical lights, and lasers attached; P8 9mm pistols; HK MP5-SD3 9mm SMGs; HK G8 assult rifles; HK 512 12-gauge shotguns; G22 Sniper Weapon System (Accuracy International AW with folding stock, and German Optics in .300 Win mag); HK PII underwater pistols; HK 21 5.56mm LMG HK 23 7.62mm LMGs; MG3 7.62mm GPMGs; and Panzerfaust 3 and Milan AT Weapons"

thats about the only info i could find, i dont know how up to date it is or if its of any help
i couldnt read the german armys website as i havent spoken german since i was 11, i kinda forgot how to:)
 
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Reply #22 - Apr 26th, 2003 at 3:19pm

Woodlouse2002   Offline
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Quote:
 I'm surprised this topic has drawn so many replies...... thanks to all for the answer to my question and thanks to y2cragie for the British forces website.

 One more question while we're on this thread, I know in the military there's been a push to got to the smaller size caliber round, the 5.56 cal.  Along with the U.S. and England I believe France has change over as well. Russia too has gone over to the smaller size caliber for use in their AK-74, but I'm not sure of its size.
 My question is has Germany also made the switch to the 5.56 round?  If so what who's rifle does the German army carry?


I personally don't understand this withdrawl to 5.56mm. If your having a fight then the last thing you want to be doing is having to hit people 3 or more times to get them to fall. With 7.62mm if you get hit once then your going down and theres no 2 ways about it which means that its far more effective.

France have been using 5.56mm for years. Ever since they had the FAMMAS assult rifle.

When russia made the AK74 that was 5.56 i believe. And same with the RPK-74. But the same still applies. Why? If you can take a man down with 1 round of ammo why switch to a calibure where you can empty half a clip into a man before he hits the dirt?

In the 1970's H&K made an assult rifle that took a 4mm round and I just don't understand it.
 

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #23 - Apr 26th, 2003 at 3:28pm

Craig.   Offline
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possibly something to do with costs, the smaller the bullet the more you can get out of a piece of metal, thus saving money.
 
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Reply #24 - Apr 26th, 2003 at 4:42pm

Tequila Sunrise   Offline
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Think about it, you want to wound ratthre than kill, not to be freindlly and have youre enemy live but to tie up his resourses. The more wounded the more doctors required, the more doctors required the more nurses transport etc etc, this also means fewer enemy personel being combatants.
 

If someone with multiple personality disorder threatens suicide, is it a hostage situation?

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Reply #25 - Apr 26th, 2003 at 5:52pm

ozzy72   Offline
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The AK74 is a 5.45mm diameter round.
Oh and Woodie its not just SAS and SBS that have long hair, 14th Int and Commanche company frequently look like refugees from Hair! Also it depends on how long a unit has been in the field, and where. Before going to Norway a lot of my RM friends grew their hair fashionably long for insulation purposes...

Ozzy Grin
 

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Reply #26 - Apr 26th, 2003 at 10:12pm

Blade   Offline
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Yea its the SA80, or its other name the L85A1
 

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Reply #27 - Apr 26th, 2003 at 11:47pm

denishc   Offline
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  There have been several reasons for the change from 30 caliber (7.62mm) to 5.56mm.
  First of all a 30 caliber weapon in full auto was almost impossible to hold down, and on target, when fired.  True the first round would hit the target, maybe the second but by the fourth round your rifle was an anti aircraft piece.
  Second the recoil of a 30 caliber round was rough on the sholder.  The constant fire of a 30 caliber weapon would just hammer a GI.
  Third, although the 30 caliber round offers good long range ability, fire fights seldom took place at long range and it was felt the need to "reach out and touch someone" wasn't needed by the common foot soldier.   
  But most of all the 5.56 mm is lighter then the 30 caliber, weight wise, meaning the foot soldier could carry more rounds of 5.56mm than the 30 caliber, up to one third more rounds.
  Its felt that the higher velocity of the the 5.56 mm round would make up for any loss of stopping power provided by the heavier 30 caliber.
 
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Reply #28 - Apr 27th, 2003 at 3:26am
ATI_9700pro   Ex Member

 
rifles...humm...in computer games,i prefer the M-16A2 or the M-60. in real-life i'd prefer the G36,the probably best assault rifle of the world.

p.s:my father used an AK-47 during his time at the NVA (nationale volks armee,the army of the GDR).
 
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