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Need a Part Name for These...(screenshot insdie) (Read 1797 times)

Apr 23^rd, 2003 at 11:38am

Whitey Offline
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I've been working on this F-4 for a few days now. I got the source file from FlightSim.com. I've just started animating it after tidying the model and scaling to the correct size. I've ran into a problem with what I believe are called 'elevons'. A quick look in the MakeMDL.doc showed that was such a thing. So I labeled them 'elevon0L' and 'elevon5R'. Well, knowing my luck...they didn't work. Can anyone give me the correct name to use?

Oh, yeah, here's the screenshot:

http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/Labels_Help

Thank you.

Wink

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Reply #1 - Apr 23^rd, 2003 at 11:55am

SilverFox441 Offline
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Label them as elevators and link them to tiny boxes labelled as ailerons...or do it the other way around.

Make sure you get the rotation axis aligned correctly so they rotate in the right plane.

If the two surfaces were in the same plane you would name them as ailerons and use a common box labelled as an elevator to rotate them together.

As you have discovered...elevon names don't work a damn.

Steve (Silver Fox) Daly

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Reply #2 - Apr 23^rd, 2003 at 12:00pm

Whitey Offline
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Ah, thanks Steve. Wink

Wink

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Reply #3 - Apr 23^rd, 2003 at 12:57pm

Whitey Offline
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Got it working after a bit of experimenting and pivot point moving. Wink

Wink

This thing's really coming on. I think we'll finally have a good (freeware and gMax) Phantom for FS2002. Grin

Grin

Although all the credt has to go to the dude who made the source file...'cos I can't model to save myself...

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Reply #4 - Apr 23^rd, 2003 at 4:18pm

Erez Offline
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Hey whitey, V.nice model
Can't wait to have him, repaint it, and finally have a good IAF F-4E. who knows, maybe I'll also make him a
F-4E 2000 panel

Good luck dude, and thanks

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Reply #5 - Apr 23^rd, 2003 at 4:54pm

Hagar Offline
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Whitey. That looks great but I think you should make sure those are elevons. I'm no expert on the F-4 but always assumed they had the more conventional all-flying tailplane. I found this reference to modifications made to the original prototypes.

Quote:

After much wind-tunnel testing, it was found that the new McDonnell fighter would encounter severe stability problems at high speeds and would as a result probably be limited to speeds below Mach 2. In order to correct these problems, several important changes had to made. One of these was the application of 23 degrees of anhedral to the all-flying tailplane, which became known as a *stabilator*. This gave the necessary degree of stability but still left the tailplane free of the jet exhaust.

If this applied to the production versions they should be animated as elevators. Roll Eyes

Roll Eyes

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Reply #6 - Apr 23^rd, 2003 at 9:57pm

Blaze Guest

Wow, that F4 looks cool...I hope you can make different model configurations for it (payload, etc.) and make some really nice textures, and a DVC Cheesy

Cheesy

Grin

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Reply #7 - Apr 23^rd, 2003 at 11:09pm

SilverFox441 Offline
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IIRC they are like many carrier planes...elevons at low speed and stabilators at high speed.

Might be hard to get that to work in GMax though...how do you access the variables from within GMax to setup the required display conditions?

In FSDS 2 it would require a little thought...but I have a fair idea on where to go with it without even trying.

Steve (Silver Fox) Daly

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Reply #8 - Apr 24^th, 2003 at 3:46am

Whitey Offline
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OK...all that just scared the hell out of me! Grin

Grin

Hmmm...that means a problem then...maybe I should try a F-4 website and enquire on their forums? Bound to be some experts there who'll know. Roll Eyes

Roll Eyes

Quote:

Wow, that F4 looks cool...I hope you can make different model configurations for it (payload, etc.) and make some really nice textures, and a DVC

Last night I got the canopies opening and closing in FS too...and the tailhook. Wink

Wink

I'll have to model my own engines, as they're not in the model, but I don't mind doing that.

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Reply #9 - Apr 24^th, 2003 at 4:07am

Erez Offline
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Wait a second

What model is this F-4 will be? F-4B or F-4E? or even RF-4E? why not all?

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Reply #10 - Apr 24^th, 2003 at 5:31am

Whitey Offline
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Right now, it's either a F-4J or a F-4K, although the noses for other variants are included. These include the F-4C and the F-4E.

PS: Look at the engine nozzles...looks like the ones on the F-4K to me. Wink

Wink

The rest of thema re longer and there diameter becomes less as the extend outwards.

Can be easily changed with soft selection, though...

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Reply #11 - Apr 24^th, 2003 at 5:50am

Hagar Offline
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Quote:

OK...all that just scared the hell out of me! Grin

Grin

Hmmm...that means a problem then...maybe I should try a F-4 website and enquire on their forums? Bound to be some experts there who'll know. Roll Eyes

Roll Eyes

Sorry but it's best to be sure. You know how critical people can be these days. I would also be interested in confirming this. I can find out for certain as a friend is involved in operation of the only civil registered F-4 in the US, maybe the world. Remember the F-4 is a very old design & was in constant service with the US military for almost 40 years, longer in other countries. I thought the system SilverFox describes did not come into use until the computer controlled fly-by-wire era. I also read that the roll controls are unusual. A combination of "flaperons" & special spoilers.

Quote:

The trailing edge of the horizontal main wing was divided into two, the inboard surface being a flap and the outboard being a "flaperon". The "flaperon" was a sort of aileron which could be moved down only, not up. Immediately ahead of each was a large spoiler. To roll to the left, the pilot would push the right flaperon down and the left spoiler up. A complex pattern of large perforations was applied to the spoilers which were mounted on the upper wing trailing edges ahead of the flaps and just inboard of the wing folding points. The aircraft had no ailerons in the conventional sense, with control being provided by spoilers and downward flaperons only. The outer wing panels were canted up by twelve degrees and had no control surfaces except for the hinged (drooping) leading edge. The stabilators had a 23 1/4 degree anhedral, and provided all of the pitch control.

Lots more info on all variants here. http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f4.html

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Reply #12 - Apr 24^th, 2003 at 7:11am

Erez Offline
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My cousin is a F-4E 2000 and RF-4E technician, and he says that the Phantom will go out of service at least at 2008 in Israel.
And Hagar, there is another civil registered F-4E Grin

Grin

. It was the F-4E of the IAI, known as the "Super Phantom" that had PW1120 engines, which are powerful and similar (in dimensions) to the J-79, only shorter and more fuel efficient. This engine was supposed to be a part of the F-4E 2000 plan, but with the cancellation of the Lavi, the only jet fighter to use this engine, this plan was cancelled and the engine was no longer manufactured.
It is now at the IAF museum.

Here you can see the PW1120 engine and the civil registration:

http://www.b-domke.de/AviationImages/Rarebird/0142.html

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Reply #13 - Apr 24^th, 2003 at 8:45am

Hagar Offline
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Thanks Erez. That's very interesting. Your cousin would be just the person to confirm if they're elevators or elevons. Roll Eyes

Roll Eyes

This is the Collings Foundation F-4D I was referring to. http://www.collingsfoundation.org/tx_f-4dphantom_pics.htm

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Reply #14 - Apr 24^th, 2003 at 5:45pm

Erez Offline
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All for the Lady Hagar Wink

Wink

Though I doubt I can meet him at this time, for he is very busy......
BTW Whitey, I would greatly appreciate if after the F-4E variant will be ready, you can add the PW1120 engines to it, and we'll improve him with a better speed and agility, and I'll take care of the paint Wink

Wink

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Reply #15 - Apr 25^th, 2003 at 1:11am

Oz Offline
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Hope this helps:

Quote:

After much wind-tunnel testing, it was found that the new McDonnell fighter would encounter severe stability problems at high speeds and would as a result probably be limited to speeds below Mach 2. In order to correct these problems, several important changes had to made. One of these was the application of 23 degrees of anhedral to the all-flying tailplane, which became known as a *stabilator*. This gave the necessary degree of stability but still left the tailplane free of the jet exhaust.

Stabilator Wink

Wink

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Reply #16 - Apr 25^th, 2003 at 5:08am

Whitey Offline
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OK, fair enough...but what does a stabilator do? Roll Eyes

Roll Eyes

Erez: What do the PW engines look like? The F-4K was the only one to use a different engine and it shows when you see it next to other versions. Wink

Wink

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Reply #17 - Apr 25^th, 2003 at 5:21am

Hagar Offline
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Whitey. Read the description. Wink

Wink

Quote:

One of these was the application of 23 degrees of anhedral to the all-flying tailplane, which became known as a *stabilator*.

Stabilator is another name for all-flying tailplane. These work in the pitch axis only, much like elevators. They should be much easier to animate than elevons.

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Reply #18 - Apr 25^th, 2003 at 5:36am

Whitey Offline
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So, they're just basically pitched elevators? Thanks for sorting that out. Wink

Wink

Nic and easy to animate. Wink

Wink

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Reply #19 - Apr 25^th, 2003 at 6:06am

Hagar Offline
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Just make sure you get the axis correct & they move in the right direction. I've seen too many people get it wrong.

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Reply #20 - Apr 25^th, 2003 at 6:22am

Erez Offline
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Whitey, the PW1120 is a sub model of the F-100

you can see it at the link I gave to Hagar before Wink

Wink

I also try to make a good PW1120 engine for my Lavi. I'm still working on it. It's OK until now, and maybe I could send it to you after I'll done. But please take your own try, since I bet you can do a better one than me;)

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Reply #21 - Apr 25^th, 2003 at 6:54am

Erez Offline
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Well I just wrote to the Pratt&Whitney site in request of info and pics on the PW1120. they don't even mentioned it at the F100 engine's page..... weird....

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Reply #22 - Apr 25^th, 2003 at 8:55am

Whitey Offline
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Actually I can't model to save myself. All I've done on the Phantom is rename parts and animate it... Roll Eyes

Roll Eyes

...I don't even know how to make the engine nozzles open wider as more thrust is added... Embarrassed

Embarrassed

...my real speciality is textures.

Anyway, I guess the PW1120 is afterburning? Also, does anyone know how the Phantoms afterburners were controlled? Was it with throttle postion or by a separate switch? Thanks...

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Reply #23 - Apr 25^th, 2003 at 10:47am

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Getting the nozzle petals to expand with thrust is more tedious than it is difficult. First of all, the "nozzles" aren't - they're throttle sticks. Each petal is key-frame animated as a throttle stick, so that at low throttle settings, they don't move, but at afterburner throttle settings, they move.

Where you get the tedious part is in carefully crafting the overlapping petals and getting the coordinated motions "just right". This is where you'll probably spend more time calculating the "math/geometry" of the positions to get them just right rather than visually moving the parts "to fit".

Quote:

Actually I can't model to save myself. All I've done on the Phantom is rename parts and animate it... Roll Eyes

Roll Eyes

...I don't even know how to make the engine nozzles open wider as more thrust is added... Embarrassed

Embarrassed

...my real speciality is textures.

Anyway, I guess the PW1120 is afterburning? Also, does anyone know how the Phantoms afterburners were controlled? Was it with throttle postion or by a separate switch? Thanks...

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #24 - Apr 25^th, 2003 at 3:15pm

Erez Offline
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Quote:

...my real speciality is textures.

No kidding....... I'm also pretty good with textures......
Designing is hard for me, since I'm doing a model from scratch..... but I'm doing my best and I know there are people here I can ask questions and they will answer and help me.... Wink

Wink

Well I guess it gonna take me some "quality time" with that engine.... oh well.......... Sad

Sad

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Reply #25 - Apr 25^th, 2003 at 9:27pm

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I would like to see an RF-4C from the NV air guard if thats possible

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Reply #26 - Apr 29^th, 2003 at 6:56pm

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Elevons are a rudder and elevator combined into one... while not much of an expert on military aircraft (ok, no clue)... They should be defined as a Stabilator. It is clearly defined within the screenshot that the aircraft has ailerons.

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Reply #27 - Apr 29^th, 2003 at 9:47pm

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elevons are elevator/ailerons - such as are found in tailless ) delta-winged aircraft... .. and I believe in some of the more modern aircraft (I *think* the Blackjack) the horizontal tailplanes (all-flying/stabilators) also have a differential movement that complements the ailerons...

ruddervators are the rudder/elevator comination, as are found on V-tailed aircraft (Beechcraft Bonanzas, for example)

Quote:

Elevons are a rudder and elevator combined into one... while not much of an expert on military aircraft (ok, no clue)... They should be defined as a Stabilator. It is clearly defined within the screenshot that the aircraft has ailerons.

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #28 - Apr 30^th, 2003 at 2:47am

Hagar Offline
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I confirmed this point yesterday by asking a friend closely involved with the F-4 & warbirds in general. He confirmed that no version of the F-4 Phantom is fitted with elevons (combined elevator/ailerons). It has a conventional "all-flying" or "all-moving" tailplane, sometimes referred to as a stabilator (horizontal stabilizer/elevator), commonly used on jet airliners.

All versions of the F-4 use a system of ailerons + spoilers for lateral (roll) control. The ailerons have no upward movement & operate between neutral & down. Both ailerons droop when the aircraft is parked. The ailerons were also used as flaperons on the F-4J to improve landing characteristics for carrier ops. "The F-4J introduced 16.5-degree drooped ailerons, which is a fancy way of saying that with gear and flaps down, a downward deflection of 16.5 degrees became the "neutral" aileron deflection."

I think this will be an interesting animation exercise. Wink

Wink

« Last Edit: Apr 30^th, 2003 at 6:03am by Hagar »

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Reply #29 - Apr 30^th, 2003 at 8:42am

Erez Offline
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Now that we know all that, do you have any idea when it will be released? I mean, the only hard thing that is left to be done is texture mapping and files

Do you need any help? should I find you something?

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Reply #30 - Apr 30^th, 2003 at 9:04am

Hagar Offline
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Erez. I feel this will take some time to complete, even for an experienced FS designer. This is Whitey's first project & it would be silly to add stress by announcing a deadline or completion date. IMHO
The animation will be difficult enough to sort out. Then there's the texturing & DVC, not to mention the flight dynamics & maybe a 2D panel. People are very demanding & critical these days even with freeware. All this takes time if it's be to done properly.

Whitey. Don't think I'm trying to put you off. Wink

Wink

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Reply #31 - Apr 30^th, 2003 at 10:12am

Whitey Offline
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Well with all this animating it will take a while.

I've just got the gear animated, but I need to know if there's anything special about the way they collapse and fold out? Does the nose gear stay out longer than the rear gear for expample? I guess you could find out little stuff like that for me Erez...also, if you can make .AIR files, you could make an accurate one becasue I really don't a clue how the thing flies or it's statistics or stuff...and I don't know how to make Flght Dynamics to boot...

And don't expect much work to done lately. I've got exams starting on Tuesday and all the way through May. A week after that I go on holiday for a fortnight. So, it'll be a while before anything is even done to it. LOL. Wink

Wink

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Reply #32 - Apr 30^th, 2003 at 10:24am

Erez Offline
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Oh sorry, didn't meant to stress you Whitey Wink

Wink

Air file? I don't have a clue how to do it...... for my Lavi I guess I'll ask permission to take an F-16 one and change it a bit at Fsedit. You can try doing lie me, take a similar aircraft's air file and modify it

About the gears.... You will need to ask someone who is working on the F-4 as a technician, maybe my cousin will get in touch with me(that will take a lot of time) or Hagar will ask her friend.

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Reply #33 - Apr 30^th, 2003 at 11:34am

Hagar Offline
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Quote:

About the gears.... You will need to ask someone who is working on the F-4 as a technician, maybe my cousin will get in touch with me(that will take a lot of time) or Hagar will ask her friend.

You seem to have the wrong impression about me for some reason. This is Hagar in all his glory. A big hairy Viking. LOL Grin

Grin

I'll ask my friend for details on the gear retraction/extension sequence. He should be able to help but it might be a while.

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Reply #34 - Apr 30^th, 2003 at 3:31pm

Erez Offline
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LOL

Cheesy

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