Simviation Forum - AIR GUNNERS--THE UNSUNG HEROES--(must read)

Apr 11^th, 2003 at 9:57pm

Threadkiller Offline
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gah!
London, Ontario

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Quote:

"I wished to be a pilot,
And you along with me,
But if we all were pilots
Where would the Air Force be?
It takes GUTS to be a gunner,
To sit out in the tail,
When the Messerschmitts are coming
And slugs begin to wail.
The pilot is just a chaffeur,
Its his job to fly the plane;
But, is WE who do the fighting,
Though we may not get the fame
If we must all be gunners,
Then let us make this bet:
That we'll be the best damn gunners
That have left this station yet!"

N.Smith, British Commonwealth Air Training plan Pg.21

i found this on my history textbook while i was doing my homework, it refers to that text, i tried to look it up but i couldn find it, anyway.... i think this is for all the air gunners out there!!!!

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Reply #1 - Apr 11^th, 2003 at 10:04pm

BFMF Offline
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yep, it seems they have for the most part been forgotten. Nevertheless, they're still heroes in my book Wink

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Reply #2 - Apr 12^th, 2003 at 3:09am

ozzy72 Offline
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Nice poem, and a little bit of long overdue recognition.

Ozzy

There are two types of aeroplane, Spitfires and everything else that wishes it was a Spitfire!

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Reply #3 - Apr 12^th, 2003 at 9:23am

Tequila Sunrise Offline
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just thinking, what was the record number of kills acheived by an air gunner?

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Thou shalt maintain thine airspeed lest the ground shalt rise up and smite thee

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Reply #4 - Apr 12^th, 2003 at 9:03pm

Threadkiller Offline
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gah!
London, Ontario

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Quote:

just thinking, what was the record number of kills acheived by an air gunner?

not sure in WWI but in korea they were the second highest socring after the F-86 aces

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Reply #5 - Apr 13^th, 2003 at 5:05am

Smoke2much Offline
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The Unrepentant Heretic
Sittingbourne, Kent,

Posts: 3879

Quote:

just thinking, what was the record number of kills acheived by an air gunner?

Do you mean claimed, confirmed or actual kills? During one raid by the 8th airforce in july 1944 gunners claimed, and were awarded 40 kills. Luftwaffe records for that day show that no aircraft were actually shot down!

The gunners war must have been awful. They were the lowest paid men in the crew and sat or stood for hours in freezing conditions searching the skies for the enemy. If captured they were kept in far worse conditions than their commisioned colleagues and were far more likely to be wounded.

Will

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Reply #6 - Apr 13^th, 2003 at 5:09pm

Threadkiller Offline
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gah!
London, Ontario

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ouch! that's not fear, they did as much as the pilots......

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Reply #7 - Apr 14^th, 2003 at 1:27am

BFMF Offline
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Pacific Northwest

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Quote:

During one raid by the 8th airforce in july 1944 gunners claimed, and were awarded 40 kills. Luftwaffe records for that day show that no aircraft were actually shot down!

huh?

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Reply #8 - Apr 14^th, 2003 at 10:56am

Professor Brensec Offline
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Quote:

Do you mean claimed, confirmed or actual kills? During one raid by the 8th airforce in july 1944 gunners claimed, and were awarded 40 kills. Luftwaffe records for that day show that no aircraft were actually shot down!

Will

This sort of thing wasn't uncommon during the war. In fact, it's not uncommon during ANY war.
Obviously, for morale reasons, both sides exaggerated kill claims and denied the numbers claimed by the enemy.

I believe there are reasonable records for the total aircraft shot down during the entire War and also records of "notable" engagements, but as for a "day to day" account of who got who, I think that's something that won't ever be known. Especially in these instances where there was a great disparity in numbers claimed by each side.

Just as a matter of interest, I did see a figure on a recent Doco which referred to total loses on each side.

The Germans lost 97,000 aircraft to the Allies 85,000. If this is an accurate account, there wasn't alot in it over such a long period.

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Reply #9 - Apr 16^th, 2003 at 3:10am

Smoke2much Offline
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The Unrepentant Heretic
Sittingbourne, Kent,

Posts: 3879

Quote:

ouch! that's not fear, they did as much as the pilots......

I believe you may have misunderstood me. I have nothing but respect for the Air gunners of all the combatant nations of WW2.

My point was simply that there is a huge discrepancy in the number of kills claimed and the number of fighters shot down. The raid I'm referring to was one of the worst days of the eigth airforce. A lot of bombers were lost and 100's of men killed. It is almost impossible during air-to-air combat to be sure whether a plane has been damaged, destroyed or has got away damage free.

In addition no single gunner could be sure that the kill was his, therefore 5 waist gunners, three tail gunners and two ball turret gunners could all be awarded credit for the same kill. If in reality this "kil"l had simply been damaged and forced to retire from combat 10 kills would be awarded to a squadron for the net loss of no planes to the luftwaffe.

This was and is a problam in all theatres of war and on all sides. Luftwaffe pilots often claimed, and were awarded a kill if they believed that they had caused enough damage to a bomber to make its crashing inevitable. There are many accounts of B-17's and B-24's beimg claimed in this was.

To close I intended no respect whatsoever to the veterans and those who were lost in combat operations during WW2, it was a comment on statistical fact, not personal bravery.

Will

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Reply #10 - Apr 18^th, 2003 at 6:12am

Professor Brensec Offline
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Can't you give me a couple
more inches, Adam?
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I'm inclined to agree with Smoke'.

In the environment that all this took place, where a gunner would only see a fighter for a fleeting moment, even if he was sure he hit it, how could he know it was a fatal or even a "decisive" hit. And again, to agree with Smoke', how could a gunner know he was the one who did make the killing blow.

In my opinion, there really isn't much chance of a gunner actually being able to positively confirm a kill at all. But then, if I was going through what they went through, I would be prone to some "wishful thinking" too. Grin

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