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Baron flight dynamics -- tips needed (Read 572 times)
Mar 8th, 2003 at 11:40pm
J G Parker   Guest

 
Hey Baron 58 pilots (FS2002Tipster, baron58TC?).  I upgraded the baron 58 using FSD Twin Props upgrade and FS2002Tipster's great panel (thanks!).  Now I was wondering if you seasoned Baron 58 flyers have some advice on power-pitch combos.  Has anyone tabled power/RPM/pitch/ for different stages of flight (initial climb, cruise climb, level flight, descent, transition manuevering, VFR approach, ILS/GS approach, etc)?  MS had a nice posting on their site for the default Baron, but these don't work for the TC version.  I'm finding the modified ac harder to manage.   I'd love to know what you veteran 58 pilots know!
 
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Reply #1 - Mar 9th, 2003 at 12:07am

FSTipster   Offline
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Unfortunately, I opted for the non-turbo-charged option.

The characteristics in certain elements of any table such as you describe would have fundamental differences in the TC version both because of the power difference and the behaviour of Turbos at altitude.

All I can tell you is that unless you're on a very short runway, you shouldn't need any flap for take-off. I do approach on the first flap setting and don't use full flap unless, again, it's a very short runway.

My climb rate is usually uniform and at 700pm, although a higher figure is easily achievable, particularly in the turbo I suspect. My descent rates probably aren't much use to you (if any of this is) because I tend to seek low altitude earlier than I'm sure you would in real avaition.

Perhaps one of the people here with slightly more "structured" flight rules than I will, be able to offer more help.
 

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Reply #2 - Mar 9th, 2003 at 12:07am

BFMF   Offline
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Is the Baron with the new flight dynamics actually harder to fly?
 
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Reply #3 - Mar 9th, 2003 at 12:09am

FSTipster   Offline
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It receives a generous (and wholly accurate) power boost.

This does give the plane a whole different "feel", particularly when it comes to take-offs and landings and takes some getting used to (did me anyway Smiley).
 

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Reply #4 - Mar 9th, 2003 at 12:40pm
J G Parker   Guest

 
The biggest change is the power, as Tipster suggests.  The thing (at least the turbo version) is almost over powered.  I had the default model down, but was having trouble with the artificially low ceiling (not enough power).  The new TC verion is way more powerful.  In fact, on TO I have to give less than full throttle (!).  The thing will pitch up 20 degrees and climb at 2500 fps and refuse to nose down.

Also, it has a very frustrating bank, perhaps due to some torque issue.  I saw in an earlier post that Tipster mentions the FDS tweaking was done to solve a yaw problem FDS saw.  I never had a yaw problem in the default, but I do now!  In an earlier post I saw Tipster say he never touches airlion and rudder trim, but I can't fly the thing straight anymore, at least not hands off and without AP.  The new bank angle gauge in tipsters panel (great!) is always 1-3 degrees right, and adjusting trim on rudder or airilon just makes it swing back and forth. 

Maybe I should have stuck with the normally aspirated version not the TC, like Tipster did. 

 
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Reply #5 - Mar 9th, 2003 at 3:06pm

FSTipster   Offline
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Quote:
The biggest change is the power, as Tipster suggests.  The thing (at least the turbo version) is almost over powered.  I had the default model down, but was having trouble with the artificially low ceiling (not enough power).  The new TC verion is way more powerful.  In fact, on TO I have to give less than full throttle (!).  The thing will pitch up 20 degrees and climb at 2500 fps and refuse to nose down.

Also, it has a very frustrating bank, perhaps due to some torque issue.  I saw in an earlier post that Tipster mentions the FDS tweaking was done to solve a yaw problem FDS saw.  I never had a yaw problem in the default, but I do now!  In an earlier post I saw Tipster say he never touches airlion and rudder trim, but I can't fly the thing straight anymore, at least not hands off and without AP.  The new bank angle gauge in tipsters panel (great!) is always 1-3 degrees right, and adjusting trim on rudder or airilon just makes it swing back and forth.  

Maybe I should have stuck with the normally aspirated version not the TC, like Tipster did.  



I know what you mean about the yaw problem. In the non TC version, I now experience an excessive yaw action on roll off to takeoff that wasn;t ther before. I'm starting to wonder if Steve Small didn't have a personal PC problem that he's "solved" under the impression that it was widespread.

The normally aspirated version is, in my opinion, far more accurate. That climb rate you referred to is ridiculous. I'd strongly recommend swapping. The normally aspirated dynamics are very close to the specs quoted on the manufacturers website - producing very accurate performance in terms of speed and altitude cruise and climb levels.

Edit: Forgot to say, you should increase the fuel cpapcity to 194 gallons if it isn't already. There hasn't been a Baron manufactured without the extra fuel capacity for years.

The other thing is the weight figure in the FSD dynamics is slightly out according to the manufacturer. If you want that spot on, change the Weight and Balance  section as follows:

[WEIGHT_AND_BALANCE]
max_gross_weight=5524                   // (pounds)
empty_weight=3959                       // (pounds)
 

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Reply #6 - Mar 9th, 2003 at 11:48pm

Brett_Henderson   Ex Member
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I'll digress a little. ..

When I first got FS2002 and flew the Baron, I was surprised at the low ceiling and "slight" under-power.

I was new to "flight-tuning" and tried to simply increase the HP with TC'ing. I could never get it right (the plane would vibrate violently under full throttle). So I gave up and just accepted it and went on to tuning the Mooney (for some reason it was more forgiving)..(I sure wish the Mooney had a V/C),,anyway...

Now I'm determined to get the Baron right...so back to the drawing board  Wink
 
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Reply #7 - Mar 10th, 2003 at 12:03am

FSTipster   Offline
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Quote:
I'll digress a little. ..

When I first got FS2002 and flew the Baron, I was surprised at the low ceiling and "slight" under-power.

I was new to "flight-tuning" and tried to simply increase the HP with TC'ing. I could never get it right (the plane would vibrate violently under full throttle). So I gave up and just accepted it and went on to tuning the Mooney (for some reason it was more forgiving)..(I sure wish the Mooney had a V/C),,anyway...

Now I'm determined to get the Baron right...so back to the drawing board  Wink


I sincerely wish you the best of luck with it.

FSD have, in my opinion, surpassed themselves with their last flight dynamics package, but they didn't think the installer out too well. It assumes you have a deafult panel installed and if you don;t makes a right pigs ear of your new one when it attempts to install it's revised gauges.

It's an auto-installer of course (Lips Sealed) but even pointing it at a dummy FS2002 folder with a copy of the gauges folder and the aircraft folder with the baron inside it, it still took me two days to get it working  right. Roll Eyes
 

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Reply #8 - Mar 11th, 2003 at 1:15pm
J G Parker   Guest

 
Well, I might follow Tipsters lead and revert back to the FDS modified version of the normally aspirated Baron.  If is is easy to do.  I seem to recall that the FDS install program had a back to 'default' option.  Tiptster, do you know if I should just re-run the installer and this time ask for "Normally aspirated" or should I go back to default and then to nomally aspirated (is this making sense?).  And will any of this affect your panel?
 
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Reply #9 - Mar 11th, 2003 at 1:51pm

FSTipster   Offline
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It would make my panel look like something out of "Nightmare on Elm Street".  Grin

The much easier way is to use my aircraft.cfg file if you want to. It also has the modification for the weight correction in it. It's simply a matter of swapping everything below your own [flightsim0] entries containing your own texture and atc entries for what's in mine.

Here it is if you want to do that:

[General]
atc_type=Baron
atc_model=
editable=1
performance=Cruise Speed\n200 kts              370 km\/hr\n\nEngine\nTeledyne Continental Motors IO-550-C 300 hp\n\nPropeller\nThree-bladed McCauley constant-speed, variable pitch\n\nMaximum Range\n1,569 nm            2,906 km\n\nService Ceiling\n20,688 ft           6,306 km\n\nFuel Capacity\n194 gal               734 L\n\nMaximum Gross Weight\n5,524 lb             2,509 kg        \n\nLength\n29 ft, 10 in          9.09 m\n\nWingspan\n37 ft, 10 in           11.53 m\n\nHeight\n9 ft, 9 in              2.97 m\n\nSeating                 Up to 6\n\nUseful Load\n1,634 lb                741 kg

[WEIGHT_AND_BALANCE]
max_gross_weight=5524
empty_weight=3959

reference_datum_position=6.96, 0, 0    
empty_weight_CG_position=-6.06, 0, 0   

max_number_of_stations=50

station_load.0=170, -6.54, -1.20, 0.0         
station_load.1=170, -6.54,  1.20, 0.0      
station_load.2=170, -9.80, -1.20, 0.0   
station_load.3=170, -9.80,  1.20, 0.0   
station_load.4=0,  -12.67,  -1.1, 0.0   
station_load.5=0,  -12.67,  1.1, 0.0   
station_load.6=0,  -15.00,  0.0, 0.0
station_load.7=0,   -3.00,  0.0, 0.0 

empty_weight_roll_MOI=15500.000000
empty_weight_pitch_MOI=32000.000000
empty_weight_yaw_MOI=19000.000000
empty_weight_coupled_MOI=0.900000


[GeneralEngineData]
engine_type=0                              
Engine.0=-1.4, -18.0, 0.0                  
Engine.1=-1.4,  18.0, 0.0                  
fuel_flow_scalar=1.0                      

[piston_engine]
power_scalar=1.0
cylinder_displacement=91.7
compression_ratio=8.0
number_of_cylinders=6
max_rated_rpm=2700.0
max_rated_hp=300.0
fuel_metering_type=0
cooling_type=0
normalized_starter_torque=0.3
turbocharged=0
max_design_mp=0.0
min_design_mp=1.0
critical_altitude=0.0
emergency_boost_type=0
emergency_boost_mp_offset=0.0
emergency_boost_gain_offset=0.0
fuel_air_auto_mixture=0
auto_ignition=0
max_rpm_mechanical_efficiency_scalar=1.0
idle_rpm_mechanical_efficiency_scalar=1.0
max_rpm_friction_scalar=1.0
idle_rpm_friction_scalar=1.0

[propeller]
thrust_scalar=1.0
propeller_type=0
rotation=-1,1
propeller_diameter=6.6
propeller_blades=3
propeller_moi=5.0
beta_max=45.0
beta_min=15.0
min_gov_rpm=1100.0
prop_tc=0.1
gear_reduction_ratio=1.0
fixed_pitch_beta=0.0
low_speed_theory_limit=80.0
prop_sync_available=1
prop_deice_available=1
prop_feathering_available=1
prop_auto_feathering_available=0
min_rpm_for_feather=700.0
beta_feather=86.5
power_absorbed_cf=0.9
defeathering_accumulators_available=1
prop_reverse_available=0
minimum_on_ground_beta=0.0
minimum_reverse_beta=0.0

[contact_points]

//GEAR
point.0=1,  0.82,  0.00, -3.96, 1600, 0, 0.633, 40, 0.42, 2.5, 0.90, 3.0, 3.0, 0, 152, 180
point.1=1, -8.04, -4.79, -3.96, 1900, 1, 0.886,  0, 0.50, 2.5, 0.85, 4.1, 4.3, 2, 152, 200
point.2=1, -8.04,  4.79, -3.96, 1900, 2, 0.886,  0, 0.50, 2.5, 0.85, 4.3, 4.1, 3, 152, 200
//SCRAPES
point.3=2, -6.20,-18.91,  0.50,  800, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 5, 0, 0
point.4=2, -6.20, 18.91,  0.50,  800, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 6, 0, 0
point.5=2,-24.04,  0.00, -0.50,  800, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 9, 0, 0
point.6=2,  0.40,  0.00, -1.24,  800, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 4, 0, 0

static_pitch=1.56
static_cg_height=3.43

[flaps.0]
type=1
span-outboard=0.41
extending-time=10
flaps-position.0=0
flaps-position.1=15
flaps-position.2=28
damaging-speed=168
blowout-speed=250

[electrical]
max_battery_voltage=24.0
generator_alternator_voltage=28.0
max_generator_alternator_amps=60.0

[pitot_static]
vertical_speed_time_constant=1.0   

[exits]
number_of_exits=1
exit_rate.0=0.4

[Radios]

Audio.1=1
Com.1=1, 1
Com.2=1, 1
Nav.1=1, 1, 1
Nav.2=1, 1, 0
Adf.1=1
Transponder.1=1
Marker.1=1

[Views]
eyepoint=-8.213, -0.8612, 2.220

[LIGHTS]
//Types: 1=beacon, 2=strobe, 3=navigation, 4=cockpit, 5=landing
light.0=3,  -6.80, -19.29,  0.79, fx_navred ,
light.1=3,  -6.80,  19.29,  0.79, fx_navgre ,
light.2=3, -25.33,   0.00,  0.72, fx_navwhi ,
light.3=2,  -6.63, -19.29,  0.79, fx_strobe ,
light.4=2,  -6.63,  19.29,  0.79, fx_strobe ,
light.5=1, -24.18,   0.00,  6.17, fx_beacon ,
light.6=2,  -8.00,   0.00, -1.60, fx_strobe ,
light.7=4,  -8.00,   0.00,  2.70, fx_vclight,
light.8=1,  -9.20,   0.00,  3.10, fx_beacon ,

[keyboard_response]
elevator=150, 250
aileron=150, 250
rudder=150, 250

[direction_indicators]

direction_indicator.0=3,0

[fuel]
LeftMain=-8.46, -7.1, 0.0, 97.0, 0.0
RightMain=-8.46,  7.1, 0.0, 97.0, 0.0
fuel_type=1
number_of_tank_selectors=2                   

[EFFECTS]
wake=fx_wake
water=fx_spray
dirt=fx_tchdrt
concrete=fx_sparks
touchdown=fx_tchdwn_s, 1

[airplane_geometry]
wing_area=199.0
wing_span=37.8
wing_root_chord=5.3
wing_dihedral=2.8
wing_incidence=1.0
wing_twist=-1.0
oswald_efficiency_factor=0.7
wing_winglets_flag=0
wing_sweep=1.5
wing_pos_apex_lon=-5.6
wing_pos_apex_vert=0.0
htail_area=40.0
htail_span=12.0
htail_pos_lon=-20.1
htail_pos_vert=0.0
htail_incidence=0.5
htail_sweep=3.5
vtail_area=31.0
vtail_span=5.3
vtail_sweep=42.0
vtail_pos_lon=-22.9
vtail_pos_vert=3.1
elevator_area=17.0
aileron_area=11.3
rudder_area=10.5
elevator_up_limit=30.0
elevator_down_limit=20.0
aileron_up_limit=20.0
aileron_down_limit=20.0
rudder_limit=33.0
elevator_trim_limit=21.0
spoiler_limit=0.0
spoilerons_available=0
aileron_to_spoileron_gain=0
min_ailerons_for_spoilerons=0
min_flaps_for_spoilerons=0


[Reference Speeds]
flaps_up_stall_speed=81.0
full_flaps_stall_speed=76.0
cruise_speed=200.0

[autopilot]
autopilot_available=1
flight_director_available=1
default_vertical_speed=700.0
autothrottle_available=0
pitch_takeoff_ga=5.000000
autothrottle_arming_required=0
autothrottle_takeoff_ga=0
autothrottle_max_rpm=150.000000

[forcefeedback]
stick_shaker_magnitude=5000
stick_shaker_direction=0
stick_shaker_period=111111
gear_bump_nose_magnitude=3000
gear_bump_nose_direction=18000
gear_bump_nose_duration=250000
gear_bump_left_magnitude=2700
gear_bump_left_direction=9000
gear_bump_left_duration=250000
gear_bump_right_magnitude=2700
gear_bump_right_direction=27000
gear_bump_right_duration=250000
ground_bumps_magnitude1=1300
ground_bumps_angle1=08900
ground_bumps_intercept1=3.0
ground_bumps_slope1=0.20
ground_bumps_magnitude2=200
ground_bumps_angle2=09100
ground_bumps_intercept2=1.075
ground_bumps_slope2=0.035
crash_magnitude1=10000
crash_direction1=01000
crash_magnitude2=10000
crash_direction2=9000
crash_period2=75000
crash_duration2=2500000
 

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Reply #10 - Mar 13th, 2003 at 5:54pm
J G Parker   Guest

 
This is great Tipster!  Thanks.  Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but could I trouble you for a little clarification:

RE: "The much easier way is to use my aircraft.cfg file if you want to. It also has the modification for the weight correction in it. It's simply a matter of swapping everything below your own [flightsim0] entries containing your own texture and atc entries for what's in mine. "

1.  You're saying I should NOT use the FDS installer and remove the PC modification, right?
2.  Where do I get at this airplane.cfg?
3.  You're saying I should find a section call [flightsim0] and substitute your material for everything I find there?
 
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Reply #11 - Mar 13th, 2003 at 7:26pm

FSTipster   Offline
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Quote:
This is great Tipster!  Thanks.  Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but could I trouble you for a little clarification:

RE: "The much easier way is to use my aircraft.cfg file if you want to. It also has the modification for the weight correction in it. It's simply a matter of swapping everything below your own [flightsim0] entries containing your own texture and atc entries for what's in mine. "

1.  You're saying I should NOT use the FDS installer and remove the PC modification, right?
2.  Where do I get at this airplane.cfg?
3.  You're saying I should find a section call [flightsim0] and substitute your material for everything I find there?


To clarify:

1) Don't uninstall the FSD modification you already have in - leave it as it is.

2) The aircraft.cfg file is in the beech_baron folder inside your FS2002/aircraft folder.

3) Before you do anything else, copy the aircraft.cfg and save it somewhere outside of FS2002 - your desktop for instance.

Then, right click the aircraft.cfg file inside FS2002 and select "Open" or "Open with" (if you have that entry in your right-click menu). If notepad isn't offered to you immediately, select it from the list.

The text of the aircraft.cfg file will then appear in a notepad window.

Scroll down it until you see the entry "[General]" which appears below the entries of the flightsim data (you want to keep that section).

Delete everything below and including the entry [General].

Copy the details I put in my post above starting at "[General] " and going right down to the bottom of my post. Paste that into your notepad of aircraft.cfg where the previously deleted entries were.

Go to the file menu in Notepad and select "Save".

That's it. If it doesn't work for whatever reason, you can restore your original aircraft.cfg from your desktop.
 

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