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Spitfire/Supermarine (Read 4734 times)
Feb 18th, 2003 at 8:40pm
Splash   Ex Member

 
Grin Knew this would get your attention, Ozzy!!!  Just saw a great dogfight between a Spitfire (F/L Charlie Brown RAF flying instr - flying for and  flew Tornados) and a Messerschmidt ME109 (Mark Hanna - ex RAF fighter pilot) at a Warbirds Airshow at Duxford (Think thats correct) England.  Truly awesome!!!! There's 50 Spitfires flyin' today, and a Carolyn Grace the only woman who owns and flys a Spitfire (2 seater) husband Nick flew with the Red Arrows ( sadly died in a car crash).  And, Sadly, shortly after this show, Mark Hanna died flying his ME 109.  I gotta go see that show!!!!  Anyone ever been there?  Also I always wondered why, when I flew the spitfire on here why there was a slight delay between right and left gear raising and lowering.  It is unsynchronized, just like the old gooney bird.  Very realistic Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #1 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 3:31am

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Hiya Splash. I used to be a regular at Duxford, I was briefly involved with the restoration of their EE Lightning as an air cadet many moons ago (seems like centuries).
Duxford is a must for warbird lovers. It is the mecca of warbirds in Europe. They restore Spitfires and other nice toys to flying condition, in fact its the home of the warbirds company.
They also supplied the pilots for James Bonds Tomorrow Never Dies opening sequence. The guys that own the company (father and son) are both ex-RAF fighter pilots.
I still desperately want to get a backseater in Carolyns T9, its gorgeous, I've seen it a few times, but its a couple of grand a pop, and a long waiting list! Just got to convince she-who-must-be-obeyed that this is a vital life experience.... She is coming round!
The Spits UC is unsynchronised if I remember correctly. But I'm normally to busy going into mental overload when I hear a Merlin cough into life. Wow!
If you can, you should get to Duxford just once (its on the M11 north of London on the way to Cambridge). It is just beyond words.

Mark Wink
 

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Reply #2 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 5:16am

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The Flying Legends air show at Duxford is on Saturday the 12th and Sunday 13th July and is THE show for Warbird fans. I go every year (and to at least two other Duxford shows) and if I could choose only one show to see, it would be this one. Most years you get to see about eight Spits flying and the mass flypast at the end is worth the money alone.
 

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Reply #3 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 11:31am
Splash   Ex Member

 
GrinAh Man, I gotta come across the pond to see that. Even wrote down the directions.  You lucky bugger, HawkerTempest.  They did show a little of the mass flypast.  Awesome!!  I taped that show and watched it 3 times yesterday.  Carolyn Grace's Spitfire is very expensive to maintain and fly, I guess and she needs funding to keep it going.  Her two children help her with it since the death of her husband.   Are there any other 2 seaters?  Too bad, it really is a beauty. Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #4 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 1:38pm

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There are a few T9s around. I believe there is one in California at the moment, just a rumour that reached me....
If you go to http://www.spitfires.flyer.co.uk/survivors.html you'll find the full list by types.

Mark Wink
 

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Reply #5 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 6:04pm

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There is at least one T9 flying in the US and there are two airworthy T9's in the UK with a third under rebuild at Duxford. Interestingly, they say they are going to operate this T9 in it's Irish Air Corps markings with the origional style higher rear cockpit fitted.
 

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Reply #6 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 9:09pm
Splash   Ex Member

 
GrinMental overload with a merlin coughin' into life huh?  What happens when you hear a Lancaster with 4 ole merlins coughin' into life? lol  7000 built, only 2 flyin' today?  one in Canada and the other flown by the RAF at a  base in England (Cant remember which one).  So you must have seen and heard that one huh?  Apparently there is another restored but only taxis, dont fly ??? Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #7 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 9:38pm

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When they bring out the CWH Lanc along with the Hurri and form up in the air with a Spit....it will make you shudder.....I know, I've seen them fly over Mt Hope...
 

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Reply #8 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 9:54pm
Splash   Ex Member

 
GrinLanc, Spit and Hurricane together?  Wow!!!  I'd love to see that, Rifleman.  Excuse my ignorance but where is Mt Hope/ or where can you see them?   Geez! I cant get the sight or sound of those out of my head now. Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #9 - Feb 20th, 2003 at 12:13am

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Having noticed the talk about the two seater. I came across this photo of a P40 which seems to have the inside of the cockpit fitted for a passenger (don't know if it's for training or a special joyride arrangement).

Can anyone shed light or am I just dreaming?

The area behind the pilots seat (which was normally blank) seems to have area for a second seat and the cockpit conopy goes back over what would normally be the blanked out area.

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Reply #10 - Feb 20th, 2003 at 1:04am

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Looks like its been modified for joyriding. Nice!
If you want exciting Splash, then you have to see the BBMF (Battle Of Britain Memorial Flight) in action. A Spitfire, Lancaster, and Hurricane bizzing along. Wow! So good I have to change my underwear from excessive excitement!

Ozzy Grin
 

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Reply #11 - Feb 20th, 2003 at 2:59am

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The Spit Hurri and Lanc is not a usual sight, but there was an occasion for them to form up and I was fortunate enough to see it....the Lanc, Spit, and Hurri used to fly from Hamilton's Mt Hope in Ontario, Canada and were owned by the Canadian Warplane Heritage........I had forgotten about the fire in which we lost the Spit and Hurri, now I'm not sure of their situation with the remaining birds......I used to take in the airshow there, back a few yrs ago.....the best way to see the show was to park in a farmers yard then walk 1/4 mile through his field to wind up about half a mile from the threshold of the active.......in line too, if you were daring enough.....I almost forgot, there was an addition one year.........wanna eat your hearts out now ?
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Reply #12 - Feb 20th, 2003 at 4:21am

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Mosquito, drool drool. Two merlins. Yummy.

Mark Wink
 

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Reply #13 - Feb 20th, 2003 at 5:12am

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Quote:
Having noticed the talk about the two seater. I came across this photo of a P40 which seems to have the inside of the cockpit fitted for a passenger (don't know if it's for training or a special joyride arrangement).

Can anyone shed light or am I just dreaming?

The area behind the pilots seat (which was normally blank) seems to have area for a second seat and the cockpit conopy goes back over what would normally be the blanked out area.

[img]


I've nerver seen a two seat P-40 before, but a number of Warbirds have been converted over the years to take an extra seat. A very large number of P-51's flying today have had a second seat fitted.
 

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Reply #14 - Feb 20th, 2003 at 5:28am

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Can't beat Rifleman's Lanc, Spit, Hurri and Mosquito pic, but here's our own "Live Lancaster" duo.
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Battle of Britain Memorial Flight Avro Lancaster PA474 with Spitfire Vb AB910 and Hurricane IIc PZ865.
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Based just down the road from BBMF's home at RAF Coningsby, is this fully ground running Lancaster, "Just Jane". This Lanc. does taxi runs with all four Merlins running and a few years ago had it's tail wheel off the ground whilst making a TV show.
 

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Reply #15 - Feb 20th, 2003 at 5:45am

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Great shots. Lurvely.

Ozzy Shocked Grin
 

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Reply #16 - Feb 20th, 2003 at 10:13pm

Professor Brensec   Offline
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Beautiful Pic boys, love 'em.

The P40 pic I posted (sorry about subject change again.........lol) is a beautiful example of this plane. An "f" model, I think. Seems to be better suited to the addition of a "pillion seat" because of the blank section (below) that was behind the pilot. The extra cockpit area doesn't look out of place at all, as it does on the Spit trainer or P51.

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Grin Grin Grin Grin

 

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Reply #17 - Feb 21st, 2003 at 5:15am

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Quote:
Beautiful Pic boys, love 'em.

The P40 pic I posted (sorry about subject change again.........lol) is a beautiful example of this plane. An "f" model, I think. Seems to be better suited to the addition of a "pillion seat" because of the blank section (below) that was behind the pilot. The extra cockpit area doesn't look out of place at all, as it does on the Spit trainer or P51.


Grin Grin Grin Grin



Nice plane brensec pal and yes, the cockpit design would seam to lend itself quite well to the extra seat fitting. Just one small observation though, that P-40 is an Alison engined version (air intake above nose) and the F had the Merlin (air intake under nose.)
 

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Reply #18 - Feb 21st, 2003 at 2:38pm

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Brensec, if you want P40 joys watch the old John Belushi/Dan Ackroyd film 1941.
I was watching it today in class as we've been looking at Pearl Harbour and the effect it had on America (and this class have a great sense of humour)!
Some lovely close-ups of Belushis character the 'potty pilot' flying, and some lovely airborne work and the engine humming beautifully. Awesome shots and sounds!

Mark Wink
 

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Reply #19 - Feb 21st, 2003 at 5:00pm

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Quote:
Brensec, if you want P40 joys watch the old John Belushi/Dan Ackroyd film 1941.
I was watching it today in class as we've been looking at Pearl Harbour and the effect it had on America (and this class have a great sense of humour)!
Some lovely close-ups of Belushis character the 'potty pilot' flying, and some lovely airborne work and the engine humming beautifully. Awesome shots and sounds!

Mark Wink

But your an english teacher?!? surely pearl harbour has nothing to do with that?
 

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Reply #20 - Feb 22nd, 2003 at 3:34am

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Yeah I know, but we have to look at various cultural aspects, and in this years syllabus America at war is one of the topics in the civilisation lessons. I didn't write the syllabus, I think my boss did it to annoy me!

Ozzy
 

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Reply #21 - Feb 22nd, 2003 at 2:57pm
Splash   Ex Member

 
GrinWhat's more fun in a Spitfire, Ozzy?  You carryin' passengers?  lolll   How much aviation/FS (Spitfire) stuff do you manage to sneak into yer English classes, under the guise of teachin'?  I know you Professors and what yer like  lolll Grin Grin Grin
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Reply #22 - Feb 22nd, 2003 at 3:31pm

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I've only managed to sneak it in once actually, in a test!
The question what is a 'Spitfire'?
1) a WWII aircraft
2) a British sports car
3) an English beer

All of those are correct answers!
Otherwise not much luck, haven't had the chance to do the Battle of Britain yet!!!!!!!!!!!

Ozzy Tongue
 

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Reply #23 - Feb 23rd, 2003 at 12:36am

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Yes, you're right Hawker, Umm.....it would seem so.  Embarrassed

Ozzy, yep, I saw the movie a long time ago, but I'm not sure if my Blockbuster has it. I'll have a look,.
I think a Spitfire is actually an insect, isn't it?
 

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Reply #24 - Feb 23rd, 2003 at 2:59am

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For the question " What is a Spitfire ?" Wink.....all of us who are aware of any circus activity will attest to the man who blows lighter fluid from his mouth over an open flame torch as being the original " SPITFIRE " !.... Roll Eyes
 

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Reply #25 - Feb 23rd, 2003 at 3:15am

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I live about an hour away from Duxford and I have still not been there, DOH. 

I have to agree about the BOB flight, a truly awe inspiring experience just to hear it.  I used to live on the Isle of Man and we had an airshow every year at a little airbase called Jurby which was about seven miles from my house.  We never used to go because our house was directly below the flight path to the show and the runway is so short you are lucky to get a Harrier in there(!) so nothing interesting ever lands.

The BOB flight came over one year at about 10.30 AM and the conditions were normal British Summer, ie rain, cloud base about 1000ft ASL.  These guys were Ozzy low.  I have never been that close to a Lancaster before or since, you could have seen the expression on the pilots face if he had banked.

One thing I have often wondered, the Spitfire and the Mustang shared the same Merlin engine I believe, yet they sound very different, why is this?

Lovely pictures by the way.

Will Grin
 

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Reply #26 - Feb 23rd, 2003 at 4:06am

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The two Merlins were made slightly differently, the American one made by Packard used metric rather than imperial measurements (if I remember correctly), and so had a different note.

Ozzy

PS. When you say Ozzy low does that mean you have Lanc tyre marks on your roof? Grin
 

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Reply #27 - Feb 23rd, 2003 at 4:12am

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The Merlins that went into the P51's were made by the Packard mob in the US. Hence "Packard/Merlin". I don't know why they sound different.
I imagine the exhaust systems were also Packard or US built and maybe the exhaust specs. were different for the Yanks. This may have a bearing on the sound.

I've only heard a Spit live. I don't know what a P51 sounds like, except from TV and Movies, and these things are often dubbed or engineered in some way.

I would have thought that, with all the variances in models and different Horse Powers and different exhaust systems being used on all the variants, there would be, at least, subtle if not noticable differences in sound in different models and makes of plane.

When you start 1 engine on a Lanc, does it sound like a Spit? What about 1 engine on a Mozzy?
Surely a Spitfire 1 (one of the few with a 2 blade prop), didn't sound the same as one of the Spifires using the 1750 hp engine in 1944? I shouldn't think so.

I haven't answered your question, have I? In fact, I think I've complicated it, somewhat. Oh well, that's what you get for asking questions I can't answer.........lol  Grin Grin Wink ??? ??? ??? Shocked
 

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Reply #28 - Feb 23rd, 2003 at 7:01am

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Although all Merlins have a very distinct sound (you can tell it's a Merlin, even without seeing the plane) the different types do have a slightly different sound. The ejector type (one exhaust for two cylinders) and later individual (one exhaust per cylinder) exhaust systems sound different, as does the enclosed exhaust (fitted to bobmers to hide the exhaust flames in the dark).
I would guess that the Mustang exhaust system makes some of the sound difference. You can tell a Mustang though by the whistling sound made not by the engine but by wind over the gun ports.
The Griffon sounds quite different from the Merlin. It has a very distinct growl.
 

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Reply #29 - Feb 23rd, 2003 at 3:05pm

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Thanks for your answers, it has cleared things up.  You CAN tell a spitfire from all other types of aircraft.  Maybe it's a racial memory or something but living in the SE of England there are quite a few of them about during the summer.  You can be standing around somewhere and hear this sound.  You get goose pimples and just know that it is a spitfire and when it comes close enough you realise that it is.

Hurricanes sound totally different and so do mustangs.

I personally prefer the Hurricane as an aircraft, unsung hero of BOB etc.  I have never seen a mosquito but I new a man he flew in them.  He loved them and felt that they were the best British aircraft ever.  Probably 'cos they always got him home.

Will Grin

 

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Reply #30 - Feb 23rd, 2003 at 6:18pm

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All aeroplanes sound different.

I prefer Hurricanes to spits. I personally like they way they look better. It looks far more rugged that the Spitfire. Also it could turn almost as tight could take loads more damage had better firepower (Even though they both had 8 .303's the Hurricanse were bunced close toghter meaning a devastating arsenal) and was more stable. The Hurricane saved the civilised world. Because if we didn't have it then we would have lost the battle of britain. Meaning that we would have been invaded. Meaning that germany would have been able to put more might into invading russia. Also the Russians would not have had the Hurricane on lend lease so there war would have been jepordised. And in North Africa and asia. The Hurricane in North Africa destroyed almost 1/2 of the afrika korps tanks. And in Asia it did great work to stop the Japs in Burma and places like that.

It shot down more enemy aircraft than any other in history and was the perfect fighterbomber as well as fighter.

Which is why its the best aircraft in history. Wink
 

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Reply #31 - Feb 23rd, 2003 at 8:32pm

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I think we've heard your "Hurricane - Saviour of the Civilised World" speach before, Woody.  Grin Grin

Seriously, I think it is the easiest plane to fly, I think it out turns the Spit actually. As far as your comment goes about the level of armament: I was reading a page on the net a few weeks ago which did a very (it claimed the first) definitive study of WWII Aircraft armaments, the different calibres, the types of projectile and they came up with the fairest way to judge the level of armament. By the weight of lead delivered over a period of time.

In this study, I saw it was amazing the weight of ammo that could be thrown at another plane in a second or ten seconds (of course they had to hit). I don't recall exactly, but the Hurricane featured high on the "effectiveness" list with it's 8 x 303 version. I'll try to find the page.  Grin Grin Wink
 

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Reply #32 - Feb 24th, 2003 at 12:04pm

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I would guess that the eight close grouped .50's of the P-47 or four .303's and four 20mm's in the nose of a Mosquito would be high on that list also.
 

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Reply #33 - Feb 24th, 2003 at 2:20pm

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Quote:
I think we've heard your "Hurricane - Saviour of the Civilised World" speach before, Woody.  Grin Grin


Ahh but people need to know this stuff don't they! The more I write it the more will see it and the more people will realise where the world would be if it was never invented. Grin

As for planes with fire power. The Hurricane MkIIB must be high up there with its 12 .303 mgs. Also the Typhoon, Tempest, P47, Mosquito. The FW190 must be up there too...

I would like to see the findings.
 

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Reply #34 - Feb 24th, 2003 at 9:55pm

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Quote:
As for planes with fire power. The Hurricane MkIIB must be high up there with its 12 .303 mgs. Also the Typhoon, Tempest, P47, Mosquito. The FW190 must be up there too...

I would like to see the findings.


There is a wealth of information on fighter armaments on this page, with regard to types, calibres, velocity, introduction and performance charts. Eat it up! Grin Tongue

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html

If you use the "Q' and "M" factors as the method to compare the overall efficiency of a gun (as explained in the introduction), there are a few surprises as to the effectiveness of some supposedly "better" armament.

Also links from the home page will take you to sections on particular aircraft and all aspects of them.  Grin Grin Wink
 

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