I want to get back to flight training and I think I need to put my self through some spin training what tips can you pilots and instructors give me thanks Greg

Like Brad says, go with a qualified stunt pilot. Spins are DANGEROUS! I've done a number in Chipmunks, and you feel like you are inside a washing machine whilst fighting the aircraft. Better safe than dead.

Ozzy

hi  spins  can  be  showen how  to  do  and  recover  from  very  important  to  exit  from  spins  and  stalls

Hmm, exiting spins and exiting stalls are 2 v.different things methinks!
A stall is a lack of speed to keep airflow over the wings sufficient to fly (barring the torque turn, but you need an SU29 for that!)
A spin is where you intestines take it in turns to squash each other whilst your eyeballs suffer compression one moment, and suction the next.
I think aub doesn't know to much about aerodynamics and flying..... ???

Ozzy

I just had a nightmare. It was watching an inexperienced Cessna pilot toying with aerobatics, with deadly result after a piece of plane fell off in an over-zealous spin recovery.

I am a member of the Gliding Federation of Australia and a glider pilot.

In the GFA Pilot training program, spin training is mandatory. In fact, all pilots must demonstrate correct spin recovery at their annual checkflight.

Any GFA pilot may practice spinning at any time provided the aircraft is suitable and there are no specific Club Rules preventing aerobatics in a hired club plane.

There are pre-requisites to spin safety.

1. The aircraft must be certified for spinning.

2. the aircraft must be within weight and balance limitations for the spin. (which it usually is in certified types)

2. the Pilot is thoroughly briefed in the procedure, and an instructor current in spin training present.

3. A pre-aerobatic check is done before commencement of the spin.

An understanding of the difference between a spin and a spiral dive is essential, as is correct spin recovery procedure for the particular aircraft flown.

Both spins and spiral dives have steep nose down attitudes. (flat spins are beyond my experience sorry....)

A spiral dive is sometimes allowed to develop accidently, by the pilot believing he is in a spin and not recognising the build up in airspeed. The wings are unstalled in a spiral dive. A spiral dive is characterised by a rapidly increasing airspeed and slower rate of rotation than the spin.

If a spiral dive develops, it is imperative that recovery action is taken quickly, as destructive speeds are very quickly reached. The aircraft needs to be rolled level and the nose raised to decrease speed.

In a spin, the inner wing is stalled, and airspeed usually reaches a limit quickly. Rotation is usually quite rapid.

A spin occurs when one wing stalls before the other, usually in a turn at low airspeed, we call this early spin stage an "incipient spin". The outer wing remains unstalled in a spin, but it's aileron is useless against the forces of the spin.

A spin is rotation in all three axis,  PITCH, ROLL and YAW.
Hence the wild ride!

If corrective action is not taken immediately upon the incipient stage of the spin, a full blown spin with it's unnerving rotations quickly ensues.

Spins can usually be corrected at the incipient stage by relaxing back pressure on the controls, (even forward pressure is needed in some types of aircraft). This reduces the angle of attack on the stalled inner wing,
allows airspeed to build up and the stalled wing begins to fly again.

Opposite rudder to the direction of the spin must be applied to stop rotation in the yaw axis, this rudder force is applied at the same time as the elevator control is put forward.

It is IMPORTANT to recognise the DIRECTION of the spin and apply the correct OPPOSITE rudder control or recovery may not be possible.

Once the yaw rotation slows or stops, and the wing is unstalled, roll the wings level with aileron then recover from any resultant dive with steady back pressure on the controls while monitoring airspeed. It is important not to over stress the airframe at this stage of recovery. Avoid a panic pullup at high airspeed, you may lose a wing or something else.

So, in a nutshell, the basic spin recovery procedure is:

1. STICK FORWARD OF NUETRAL
 (Don't invert - just enough to get the wing flying again)
 
2.  FULL OPPOSITE RUDDER UNTIL ROTATION CEASES
 ( then center the rudder, you might spin the other way)

3.  ROLL LEVEL AND RECOVER FROM RESULTANT DIVE
 (You must get the nose up. Be gentle, dont break it.)

Spins are dangerous and deadly for the unprepared, particularly at low altitude where there is insufficient recovery height. Unfortunately this low altitude flight is where they often occur.

In a landing circuit, while turning onto crosswind or final,
an aircraft is vulnerable if airspeed is low. That is why proper landing speeds must be flown.

A gust can induce a slow turning plane into a spin. That is why glider pilot's are trained in spin recognition and recovery. A glider turning in a rough thermal close to stall speed is a spin waiting to happen! In reality it rarely happens because the pilot is very tuned into the feel of the plane. But It happens.

It is very unfortunate that the current flight simulations offer such poor spin emulation, because this is a manuever that could be perfected in the comfort of an armchair, rather than risking life and limb, not to mention the stress caused to aircraft when they are mishandled during training or genuine emergency.

Airspeed is everything. Watch your Attitude!

Sweet Dreams!   

Congo, its nice to hear that some people take their safety properly.
Here in Hungary its a case of you're up there, and once you've solo'd you can fly anything, anywhere, anyhow. Probably why flying isn't too big here, to many strawberry jam moments....

Ozzy

You have it correct, but the only problem I have, is somebody reading a post like that, thinking that they can now go out and try it. For everyone here, if you have not had training in spins, attempt ANY type of spin. A spin can easily go terribly wrong, and it isnt as easy as it sounds. There are even some basic spins that as a professional instructor am afraid of showing. That should tell you something.

Awash, you should initiate the spin just before the stall, you should have slowed the aircraft right down, and be pulling back on the stick to keep the nose level, then hit the rudder. Should have the desired effect.

Ozzy

scubapro just out of interest what aircraaft do u use for spin training?

Most are right, spins are dangerous... but more so at low altitudes and the wrong type of aircraft (there are some aircraft that are approved for intentional spins while most are not).  Go with an instructor in a certified aircraft.  But, one thing to remember for an inadvertent spin... it is called P.A.R.E.

P. POWER TO IDLE
A. AILERONS TO NEUTRAL
R. RUDDER OPPOSITE TO THE DIRECTION OF THE SPIN
E. ELEVATOR, ONCE YOU STOP ROTATING... GRADUALLY PULL UP, PULLING UP RAPIDLY WILL RESULT IN STALLING and THE POTENIAL FOR ANOTHER SPIN.

There was only one time that I have ever been scared to death in an airplane, and that was during a training exercise (scubapro knows this one), called an accelerated stall... The plane (C172) went inverted and we started to spin... scared the s*** outta me!

But, using the above method (P.A.R.E.) I was able to recover without incident!

I've not been in this part of the Forum before. It's certainly been very interesting, just reading this thread.

I haven't had much time or need to get into discussion concerning 'real' flight. Even though many say that there is not much difference in terms of thoery etc, I prefer to consider 'real' flight as completely different. AS different as 'simulated' death is from 'real' death.

As Scubapro may recall, I have been making enquiries about flight training and have had some misgivings regarding the Medical requirements or restrictions.
Well, it would seem that, even though I may sound like a bit of cripple to some on the forum (having had to semi-retire and am only able to undertake sedentary work on a limited basis) I am apparently able to fly (not me personally - the plane).
I just had my medical and am OK for private, at least.

The Doc summed it up when he said to me "noboby stands up while they're flying, so as long as you can move everything while you're sitting and can see, you OK" (there's a bit more to it than that but basically it's not as bad as I would have imagined).

Anyway, I'm having a TIF in two weeks (can't wait).

Don't know if you've been up this way Congo, but I'm going to Hoxton Park. It's only a few miles away.
This is appartently what I'll be in. (Never been in anything but Airliners - oh! and the Spitfire V )

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No, you have it all wrong. I didn't have a training flight in the Spit.
I posted about it months ago.
My grandfather was in the RAAF and when my brother and I were young (I was about 5, brother, 7) he took us up in a Spitfire V. In his lap.
I don't remember much about the flight except the smell of petrol and puking all over the wing.
After talking to my brother about it (after I posted about the event) I recalled that the plane was yellow (must have been an RAAF trainer - not a "T" - just a "practice plane" designated for training pilots - it was about 1963).
We also used to call it the "kangaroo plane". I suppose because it had a kangaroo or two on it somewhere (probably in the centre of the roundels).

I also recall (vaguely) that I got a really bad fright at some point when we were coming into land, because I could see that the plane was nearly going sideways (at least that's how it seemed to me, at that age) and I thought we were crashing. (5 year olds don't know a terrible lot about Yaw and engine torque etc...........lol.

That's what I meant by "only ever being in an Airliner ..........oh, and the Spitfire V"

Now I'm jealous. You've actually been in my dream plane. If I had to have one last flight in my life and never go up again it would be a Spitfire IX or V!!!
As to the rules for flying in Aus. best to drop Congo a message, as he does gliding, and seems to know everything related to the rules of aviation in your neck of the woods.
Up here you get you PPL, and then you can take passengers, and not before...

Ozzy 8)

The Spitfire thing has taken on a life of its own, I'm going to build a full sized replica. Unfortunately things are on hold as we recently lost all our dough in a fraudulent property deal (and the charming people concerned aren't even in jail!), so that has put me back a little, but I'll manage somehow.
I know about the T9 in Britain belonging to Carolyn Grace (it was brought by her husband Nick, who tragically died a couple of years ago), there is a 2 year waiting list to have a go. I hope I'll bag it as a birthday present one of these years. My wife understands my fanaticism, which is why I was allowed to get the replica plans by Marcel Jurca. I've hopefully found a suitable engine with enough power to get me out of the mischief I normally get into Most people think I'm a lunatic in virtual aviation, they should see me in real life!!!
Anyways have a safe flight, and enjoy yourself.

Mark

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I'm surprised to learn that this is no longer a requirement for the PPL. Seems the modern trend is "spin avoidance". In my day (early 1960s) stalling & spinning (both directions) were mandatory before a pupil was allowed to go solo. Not much point in finding out afterwards. IMHO

I'm with Brad on this one, I've done spins, and even for an experienced pilot they can be dangerous. And as he says they don't do the plane any good. Sure an SU-29 can take it, but a Cessna?
Unfortunately with learning to fly some realistic economics has to come into it. Certainly safety is of primary importance, and I look upon the PPL as being like the driving licence, it says you are capable of doing the minimum to drive, you should never stop learning. Unfortunately most car drivers think that a driving licence means they are now a road-god! Lets be honest when did any of us last pick up our Highway Code and read it? And we're meant to every year.... So it should be with flying. You've got your PPL and then you should take more advanced lessons to learn those new skills that could save your life one day.

Ozzy

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Well, not quite!

Looks like there's some real disagreement here about spins (methinks this is one of those 'agree-to-disagree' standoffs)!

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Scubapro, I gather from your avatar/signature you're a CFI.......I'm amazed by some of your comments here!

Spins are only "hard on airplanes" if not done properly and within the limitations of the craft (given in the Operator's Manual). For instance, I've flown C-152s and 172s that were certified in the Utility category and approved for spins. I haven't had my own op's manuals out recently (buried in a box somewhere in the basement), but I recall that the 152 had a Utility rating that stipulated a max of 3 spin rotations with the flaps up....ditto for the 172 except there could be no passengers or baggage in the back seat or rear compartment. Any change from these configurations means that spins shouldn't be attempted. Of course, the manuals also spell out the appropriate recovery procedures.

So (to get to the point), IF:
.....thoroughly trained in spins by a qualified CFI;
.....performed in an aircraft certified for spinning; and
.....done at a safe altitude using the proper recovery  techniques.....
spins are not dangerous and will not overstress the aircraft.

I believe in aviation safety as much as the next pilot (the SAFETY FIRST concept gets drummed into every student pilot's head); spins, stalls, or other maneuvers are only as safe or unsafe as the competence of the pilot (in training, skill, judgement....).

As Hagar said, spins used to be a required part of flight training. Can't say that I've done any real research on it,
but I doubt this was changed by the FAA due to any extraordinary statistics about spin accidents. I suspect it was probably an attempt to boost the General Aviation industry (here in the U.S.), by making student flight training less demanding (or seem less intimidating).

Well, I wouldn't notice what it says in a C-182 manual because I don't happen to have one and I haven't flown a 182 in about 9 years! If the operator's manual approves it for spins, great! Spin it (just heed the instructions)!

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What!!? I'd say if anything they're built much better, given the significant advancements in construction technology and materials.

BTW, no one's questioning how things are done at your flight school (how'd I know?); the debate here is about the merits of spin training and whether it should be taught.

Again, spins are only exceedingly stressful to the airframe when carelessly executed.....as from improper recovery technique resulting in an extended spin that induces higher loads. When accidents occur from this (whether just structural damage or something more serious), it's attributable to "pilot error"......a term you'll often see as the root cause of most aviation accidents.

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Ozzy,

With regard to the comment about drivers never looking at a "traffic manaul" after they get their license.
I agree 100%. It's surprising how many of my family and friends are ignorant of a few important changes to the road rules here. (I discovered this in a recent family discussion regarding driver training and competence).

I must admit that I only knew because I have to attend the RTA (Roads and Traffic Authority) office to renew my "Disabled Parking" authority every 3 years. While waiting for processing a few months ago, I had a go on the auto-computerised testing system they have there. Of course, questions relating to the recent changes were included.
I think a written test each 3 or 5 years would go a long way towards driver awareness, no only for new regs but the old ones everyone seems to have "forgotten". 

Andrew I think you'll find on older FSs that due to simpler aerodynamic calculations spins were easier to induce. I still find them easy on 2k2, and in particular love doing them in my Spit!
Brensec I'm still in Hungary, but I'm planning to get on with the build as soon as things get back to normal. Seem to spend a lot of time in court throwing wobblies to no effect! I do get home at least once a year though if I can.
Oh and the Aus company that is doing the 3/4 scale Spitfires is to be located at http://www.supermarineaircraft.com/ as theirs was one option I was looking at, but I'm a big bloke and need a wee bit more room!

Ozzy

when you stall faster:)
sorry i just had to

as for spins there is a whole thing in one of my handbooks for learning but unlike most sections it doesnt give a thing for practical work on it.(with instructor of coarse)???

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Effectively, this means that if you are in a plane say, with a low landing approach speed and were coming in at say about 65 kts, and you had a tail gust of 20 kts or so, you could end up flat on your face (or some other part) before you knew what happened.

I take it, this is the basic idea. 

Just one more thing - on the actual subject.

The P39, according to my literature, was a very dangerous plane when it came to stalls, spins and indeed any loss of control due to the very different balance (CG etc) in the way the engine was mounted.
I have read in some places that the method of getting out of a stall spin was to bend over and put your head between your legs...............
So you could kiss your arse goodbye.

Was there an approved method to recover from a spin, or was it just "pot luck" if you made it?

P.S. I have no trouble recovering in the "Stock" CFS2 Airocobra nor the download P400 "Miss America" (probably same config.). I find it works with full stick forward and the rest of the usual actions.
I haven't got a 1% to try it with. (Is there one?)
I have tried in Fighter Ace a million times, and it seems nothing will work.

Anyone have the "dope" on this plane?

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That's been the reason behind many a question I have posed in these forums.
How much like an actual aircraft can a sim be? I know huge allowances must be made for the lack of G forces, lack of visual disturbances, lack of basic feel of the controls, lack of danger and so on.
However, in the strictest terms of the aircraft behaving how a real plane would when one thing or another is done to the sim controls, how close can it be.

I hope to find out shortly, in so far as I have an intro flight coming up. From what I hear, I may or may not get a reasonable go at the controls. Some have said they were permitted to "basically" take off and land the plane, by the instructor. Who knows.
Will an instructor who comes across a mature person with an obvious brain, who claims to have had extensive experience with Computerised Sims, be inclined to allow this person some freedom (within reason, of course). Or will most consider this person the novice with no idea and treat them with more trepidity because of a perceived over-confidence? 

Apart from a knowledge and familiarity with the gauges and their purpose, is there really any advantage?

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That sounds like a low-level wind shear; potentially a dangerous condition......hopefully you've already flared and are within a few feet of touchdown when you experience this! Just to be safe, I'd always carry a little extra airspeed on base and final approach when there were gusty conditions ....you can always "go around" if you happen to float too long down the runway.

Btw, there are numerous sites that explain in detail the aerodynamic principles and flight characteristics of all categories of aircraft (not to mention by type & class.... ad nauseum!) I'll list a few of them here; they cover stalls, spins, and wind shear.........

     http://www.whittsflying.com/index.html
     http://www.mpaviation.com/lesson9.htm
     http://www.infodotinc.comweather3/6-15.htm

Figure it's better just to check these and many other very informative links, than my attempting some long-winded thesis on the subjects......regurgitating what I've learned from flight manuals, instructors, and other texts (and many of these sites!).

For those interested, READ UP(!)......then you can write your own Doctoral's dissertation on aerodynamics!

so thats why i got no response from bernie ecclestone when i emailed him asking to be a test driver saying i could win the championship on the official F1 game

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The mind boggles.
Not much chance of me seeing the ad so I won't worry about it.

Guys if you have not seen realairsimulations Siai-Marchetti SF.260 it spins perfectly it will wind up one you if your knot careful I have that happen to me many times and it takes me almost 2 turns to get it to stop rotating but it is a blast to fly there web site is www.realairsimulations.com I highly recomend you check it out the price is 25.00 dollars USD but it is worth every penny that is if you like flying payware I fly both payware and freeware I just downloaded from flightsim.com the turbo 182RG super skylane over 500kts cruise that I think is highly unlikely.   It will go over 200 kts at 80% power I tried it at 75% power and it did 204kts not to bad right

Andrew, glad to hear that you are enjoying flying now, obviously the second flight went better than the first. Keep at it

Mark

Good luck Brensec. I'll keep my fingers crossed. Maybe you should get all the whinging Poms to line up and complain that the weather is too wet for Australia, a kind of negative aura to make it sunny?

Ozzy

If I'm not mistaken, the F104 Starfighter was a notorious spinner!

You nailed it OTTOL... Obviously there are a lot of misconceptions concerning stalls and spins and the relations between the two, but not only in sims...

The CFI who gave me my spin training when i was working on my CFI a couple of years ago claimed that he could not get the schools 172 to spin (the schools 152 was more suitable but unavailable) unless the spin was "controlled" wherin he basically manipulated the ailerons and rudder to produce a spin like maneuver (This was not a spin, at no point was the aircraft stalled)

I asked him if i could give it a shot. I placed the aircraft into a power on stall and just as the stall occured I applied full left rudder. The stall horn cried out and she whipped around in a beautiful spin of about 3 rotations (172s, 152s and the like wont complete many rotations as i have experienced) then we recovered. I personally think spins are fun if you do them in a controlled and professional environment... but i certainly wouldnt want to do it on the dreaded base to final! 

I have found that one rotation in a 172 will kill off several hundered feet of altitude... not a lot of room for error when low and slow. For that rare cocky student who think it is not important to capture and maintain approach speed and frequently dismisses the importance of rudder the spin can be an attitude changing maneuver! (Cruel? maybe... but it is a lesson reserved for the extremely cocky individual and luckily i have only had to use this method twice... they dont forget it either!)