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spins (Read 6266 times)
Reply #60 - Dec 3rd, 2003 at 9:19am

nbasson   Offline
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If I'm not mistaken, the F104 Starfighter was a notorious spinner! Grin
 
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Reply #61 - Dec 3rd, 2003 at 6:10pm

OTTOL   Offline
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Looks like this one was covered quite some time ago, but now that nbasson has revived it, I read it and it has piqued my interest. Quote:
Hmm, exiting spins and exiting stalls are 2 v.different things methinks!
A stall is a lack of speed to keep airflow over the wings sufficient to fly (barring the torque turn, but you need an SU29 for that!)
A spin is where you intestines take it in turns to squash each other whilst your eyeballs suffer compression one moment, and suction the next. 
I think aub doesn't know to much about aerodynamics and flying.....   

Ozzy
To enter a spin, an aircraft must FIRST be STALLED!
-A spin is created when one wing still produces lift and in turn, that lift pulls the aircraft about it's vertical axis.
-During a spin the airspeed will be at or near stall, and the aicraft will experience relatively LOW G-force.
-Most airframe damage occurs during Improper spin RECOVERY(not during the spin)due to overzealous recovery technique, OR lack of(allowing the speed to build too much and THEN recovering).
-Power, absolutely, should be reduced to idle BUT, this is due to induced torque affect, NOT increased speed DURING a spin.
-Spin training IS required for ALL CFI's in the U.S.
-Spin training(verbal instruction)saved me from certain death, as a student pilot, and in my opinion is VERY valuable.
-Spin training is not a bad idea, but I would highly recommend doing it with an aerobatic(as opposed to primary PPL) instructor, in an aerobatic aircraft, such as a Pitts, Decathalon, Sukhoi etc.
-Without repeating the same thing - Redwing is correct RE:description of the accelerated stall. The example we used to use was the turn to final. It is drummed into our heads from day one, that when you are " low and slow" while turning final, to limit your angle of bank(stall speed increases with bank angle(very bad)). So, it would make sense that if you're carrying an extra 20-30knots while turning final, you should be safe right? The accelerated stall(in this case) occurs at a HIGH AIRSPEED and HIGH ANGLE OF BANK, due to the wing exceeding the critical AOA(as Redwing stated).


Finally, I agree with Hagar 100%. For those that have done spins in real airplanes, the F$ version is hardly a substitute. The aircraft (in MS) falls in and out of the stall(a stall is maintained through an actual spin's entirety), and the airspeed varies from zero to VsX2. Actual aircraft dynamics are more than a matter of three axis' and power, lift and drag. And the current computers are still not up to speed in this department.
 

.....so I loaded up the plane and moved to Middle-EEEE..........OIL..that is......
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Reply #62 - Dec 4th, 2003 at 1:34am

RitterKreuz   Offline
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You nailed it OTTOL... Obviously there are a lot of misconceptions concerning stalls and spins and the relations between the two, but not only in sims...

The CFI who gave me my spin training when i was working on my CFI a couple of years ago claimed that he could not get the schools 172 to spin (the schools 152 was more suitable but unavailable) unless the spin was "controlled" wherin he basically manipulated the ailerons and rudder to produce a spin like maneuver (This was not a spin, at no point was the aircraft stalled)

I asked him if i could give it a shot. I placed the aircraft into a power on stall and just as the stall occured I applied full left rudder. The stall horn cried out and she whipped around in a beautiful spin of about 3 rotations (172s, 152s and the like wont complete many rotations as i have experienced) then we recovered. I personally think spins are fun if you do them in a controlled and professional environment... but i certainly wouldnt want to do it on the dreaded base to final!  Roll Eyes

I have found that one rotation in a 172 will kill off several hundered feet of altitude... not a lot of room for error when low and slow. For that rare cocky student who think it is not important to capture and maintain approach speed and frequently dismisses the importance of rudder the spin can be an attitude changing maneuver! (Cruel? maybe... but it is a lesson reserved for the extremely cocky individual and luckily i have only had to use this method twice... they dont forget it either!)
 
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Reply #63 - Dec 5th, 2003 at 5:27pm

Redwing   Offline
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Quote:
-Spin training(verbal instruction)saved me from certain death, as a student pilot, and in my opinion is VERY valuable.



Same here OTTOL....though it was because of the spin training I received that I was doing them in the first place!Grin After getting my PPL, I demanded that my instructor teach me spins, which he did. After only about a half hour of spin training, he approved me to do them on my own; the next couple of weeks I would do 3 or 4 spins every time I went up. One day I was bored with the same old 1-2 rotation spin...I decided I would ignore the 2-spin maximum in the manual, and hold in full rudder for just a little longer (becoming sort of an 80 hour-novice test pilot!) Just about half way into the 3rd rotation the nose dropped straight down and I suddenly found myself accelerating quickly in a vertical dive, the wings windmilling around the longitudinal axis (kind of like a skater doing a tight pirouette). Thanks to my training and practice, I didn't have to think; I instantly kicked in full opposite rudder and held it....stopping the rotation, then easing out of the dive. I'm sure my airspeed must have been high in the caution range near redline before I recovered. I know I spent some time  afterwards just cruising around in lazy flight to regain my composure; I knew that I'd come within a second or two where I couldn't have recovered and would have rode it in.....several panicky seconds before becoming the old smokin' hole (I've wondered since what my final thoughts would've been!). It was certainly one hell of an adrenaline rush, though--knew that I was alive! Cheesy

The only other time I was that scared was much earlier in my training, when I was cleared to turn my C-150 on final approach .....turned way too soon behind a pair of Air Force A-10s and got tossed around pretty good in their wake! But that's another story (and I was much younger, with better reflexes!) Wink






 
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