i am very suprised of you guys ???...
every aircraft designer and military aircraft fan that respect   him self need to know the fantastic multi-role fighter called "lavi"(Lion) (SEE PICTURES BELOW) 8). I looked EVERY WHERE!!! and it was no where to be found!!!!
The lavi didn't make it to operational service but it was a prove that Israel can make a fighter, and even one of the best in the world (even better than the F-16 and cheaper than him). The independent development of a state-of-the-art plane was a first in the annals of Israeli technology.
The Lavi was intended to become the IAF's(Israeli Air Force) standard-bearer and Israel's first line plane. It was to be one of the world's most advanced planes at the turn of the millennium. The single-seat Lavi was intended to replace the Skyhawks, and carry out a variety of air-to-ground attacks at close to medium range, as well as protecting the skies over Israel. The tandem seat model of the Lavi was to serve as an advanced stage training plane, and occasionally carry out combat missions as well.The Lavi was a small, smart, highly robust fighter, that was to be the IAF's solution for the future battlefield. Its uniqueness lay in the combination of a physically small plane with very sophisticated, software-rich systems. This meant lower purchase, usage and maintenance costs, compared to other planes.
The project was cancelled because of budget problem but there are 3 "lavi's that flew, passed all the tests, and was produced and OLNY ONE of them is still flying and is been used as a Technology Demonstrator in the Israeli Aircraft Industrial (IAI)...
I really think we need this one hell of a plane on FS2002.CAN ANYBODY DO IT??? PLEASE DO IT!!!

ID:
Primary role: multi task fighter. Origin: Israel. Dimensions: wingspan: 8.78 m. length: 14.57
Height: 4.78 m
Wing area: 33.05 sq. m.   Maximum speed: Mach 1.85
Max. payload capacity: 7,200 kg
Operational range: 2,100 km  
Basic takeoff weight: 9,990 kg  
Pratt & Whitney PW1120 engine with a thrust of 9,344 kg
FOR MORE DETAILS:
www.iaf.co.il/iaf/doa_iis.dll/Serve/item/English/1.3.3.6.5.1.html

http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/lavi.jpe
http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/pic01.jpe
http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/pic02.jpe
http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/pic03.jpe
http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/pic04.jpe
http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/pic05.jpe
http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/pic06.jpe
http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/pic09.jpe
Thanks!
Erez Rochman, Israel

I agree.  The Lavi would be a great addition to FS2002, or CFS3.

yooooooo guys!!! (and ladies)
i can't believe that no one want's to make the Lavi!!!
what's wrong with you!!! we must have this kick ass fighter in our flight simulators!!! soon i will be over with his picuters and i will not be able to keep this Topic on the front page of aircraft wanted .....
please help!!! i know you are busy and all but can you please tell if you plan to do it? it's my favorite fighter.
i found more pictures of him (please wait if they are a little slow). most of them are from the first time that he was unvailed (been saw) to the poblic by the Israeli Aircraft Industry (IAI). the rest are from an Air Force day in Israel and from IAI's Base in LOD (city in Israel).

bonzonie, do you know any one that can do the Lavi for me? i know you are a great telent in your self (i got some of your works), so can you or someone do it?

and also the F-2 is not better than the F-16 Block 60 or even not from the F-16I that lockheed is developing to israel and will come to Israel in the next half a year... and the F-2 will cost 100 million $!!! thats 4 times from normal F-16!
please tell if anyone going to do it!

FELIX

I sware I've tried..... 

I'm a guy who needs personal lessons, I mean, some1 close to me makin' the whole thing and then I'm capable to "copycat" him and move on.... call me lazy if U will
Perhaps Erez is the same as me, dunno know..
but I want to tell Erez one thing that I've learnt here, plz be more careful with your demands..calm down, the way U approach was quite imposing....ok?

erez. I think you have the wrong idea about this. Not everyone feels as passionately about this aircraft as you. A designer can spend many months creating a detailed FS model. Most designers create aircraft that have some meaning for them. On this basis you would be the best person to do it.

Gmax is difficult, Period..........!
The fact that English is not your first language is a handicap but you seem fluent enough so should be able to figure it out. We're all beginners to start with.

Quote:

Freeware designers don't work to a deadline. They can take just as long as they want. You might want this aircraft badly but it's hardly a matter of life or death.  

Ok Ok i give up!!!!!!!!! YOU REALLY BREAK MY HEART AND SPIRIT
I was just asking for a one small request like every one alse in this forum... i really didn't mean to make some people angry around here... i'm sorry if that happened...
it's OK if you don't want to make the Lavi... it's a damn shame but still... it's your choice... i have a friend that is planning to make the Lavi but he said it's going to take a while.
I'M REALLY REALLY SORRY IF I WAS RUDE AND PATIENT LESS.... forgive me friends. i just wanted the Lavi for FS2002. oh and about the Jean's IAF simulator, i have that simulator but the Lavi over there is not that good, he is not photo realistic and you can't have a free flight to any where you want to go, you can take off only in 3 IAF's bases in israel, and you can fly only in part of the middle east.
Just wanted to say that i'm sorry.
BUT JUST TAKE A LOOK AT THIS BABY!!!!!!! (THERE IS A PICTURE BELOW,KIND OF SLOW,DONT YOU THINK?) HE DESERVES TO BE AT FS2002!!!
YOU GOT TO AGREE IT'S A BEAUTY!
PLEASE TELL IF YOU REALLY THINK THAT THE "LAVI" IS A COOL FIGHTER (PLEASE REPLY IF YES OR NOT)

P.S: I didn't give up on this idea http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/lavi04

With Respect to all of the designers:
Erez Rochman, Israel

erez, ma nishma?
ata israeli?

korim li amara, ani tsarfati.

just be a little bit more patient .
alonik and i will start working on it real soon just don't ask any more questions, beseder?? (and stop writting chapters and chapters in your posts... just a few lines is enough...
and not everyone has to share your opinion about the plane, even though it is a great bird .

so just hang on a little.
shalom,
asnamara

Quote:


I didn't say it was better Only said it was a development of the F-16.

More like the Japanese goverment took the costly way of designing their own fighter so as not to crush the Fighter industry here instead of going for F-16s or aircraft of that category. I don't think it is a bad decision as you guys know us Japanese like to retire our Diesel Subs in a mere 16 years just to keep the 2 sub-building companies alive.... Seems like they have enough money to support some fighter development.

To bonzonie:
I know that The F-2 is one of the best fighters today, and i read a full story about him in my IAF's magazine...
he's got an excellent avionic system, he can carry an impressing number of weapons and can fly very far.
that's what you got for 100 million $.
i know that The F-16 Block 60 of the UAAF and the F-16I for the IAF are slightly better (again: slightly better!) than the F-2, your goverment was damn right about to take the costly way because she didn't crush your aircraft industry. good choice . In the lavi case my goverment made the right choice of developing new plane, but as i wrote, the USA told her to stop, and of course we had to listen to them. the people in israel was very upset.
can you post some F-2's pictures? maybe someone can do he's repaint from the F-16 Block 50 to he's new operational colors... this is a picture of the F-2's prototype:
http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/F-2.jpe

thanks again:
Erez Rochman

Ok I understand that this is not the place to talk polotics so I'll take it elswhere. The Lavi looks amazing and I would love it to be made. I bought IAF and it is like an extremely stripped down version of USAF personally I would advise against buying it.

Crumbso

The IAF simulator came before the USAF. jean's and the israeli company called "Pixel" created him in 1998 (!) for that time and even for now, if you like the story of the game (Most of the IAF's histrory), it's a really really good simulator...
jean's saw that the IAF is selling so she teamed up again with "Pixel" to create the USAf, that has improved graphics but he looks a lot like the IAF. the Lavi over there was in operational colors, and not very good but he's cockpit is great and more things in it, and considering the time he was desgined, he is at high class 8. but we need new and much better Lavi because FS2002 and CFS3 are offering much more.
Hope you anjoyed flying for the iaf .

wolf8218 wolf8218 wolf8218.....

The Lavi IS NEW AIRCRAFT, and I think that you didn't read all the posts. The F-2 is MUCH better than the F-16C.
back in 1987 the japanese goverment decided to develop with MD that later bought by Lockheed a new and better version of the F-16C and in the 7 at july 1995 the F-2 toke off. from outside view, they look almost the same, but inside it's a new plane. let's just say: the F-2 Will win F-16C in battle. the Lavi's develop strated in 1982 and was stoped in 1986 after the USA told Israel to stop. and supposed that the Lavi took some of the good aerodynamic shape of the F-16, back in the  1984  the F-16C just got out to the market, while the develop of the Lavi was in his middle, so I guess that israeli designers knew the F-16C and took the best of him with the best of the lavi, and created the first prototype.when the Lavi's construction was started Israel had all of her demands and his shape and stuff like that on the paper. the lavi was and he still 5 million $ cheaper than the F-16C. even that the project was cancelled, in 1989, two years after the Lavi was cancelled IAI built the 3'rd prototype that he is the Lavi that was supposed to become operational. the lavi's 3'rd prototype cost 20 million $ and the F-16C costs 25 million $. yet the Lavi is even better than the F-16 block 50. here's the link to the Lavi's technical data: http://www.iaf.co.il/iaf/doa_iis.dll/Serve/item/English/1.3.3.6.5.1.html

the images i post in my first post don't longer work so look at them now. these are his coolest pictures:
http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/lavi.jpe
http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/pic01.jpe
http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/pic02.jpe
http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/pic03.jpe
http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/pic04.jpe
http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/pic05.jpe
http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/pic06.jpe
http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/pic09.jpe

Fighter Talk!? Count me in!!

Actually, I think the F-2 fulfilled it's requirement! And that is to keep the Japanese Fighter development from crushing!! This may sound bizzare, or totally crazy to the major fighter-design countries (US, Europe, Russia), but smaller countries without much resources to do these things have to do (sometimes idiotic) measures to keep them from going rusty. Remember Japan pours on billions of dollars to keep 16 diesel subs in the water, each one only lasting for 16 years as a new one is built to replace it.... Pretty dumb IMHO, but probably needed... (What I DO think is idiotic is the fact that we only keep 16 subs.... why not increase to 20? Of course, we are supposed to only have enough to "defend" our country and cannot have more than 16 for fear of "scaring" our neighbors..... )

I haven't checked much performance numbers of the F-2 yet, but I sure do think its a helluva better plane than the F-1 it's going to replace. I believe it is suited for the Japanese SDF, as the F-16C cannot do Maritime-Strike missions, nor does it have the "Japanese Electronics"

To me, it sounds like the Lavi and F-2 began with the same requirement, to build a new fighter to defend the country, and to keep the fighter-design resources alive. Unfortunatly, the US intervention fourced Isreal to stop short....

And oh, let's try not to get too political

Quote:

Here is the best tutorial for gmax that i have found, It isn't finished yet...but soon willhttp://www.simviation.com/gryphon/tutorials/gMax_00.htm

I think it will be finished before you come to that part of the tutorial, and yes, I think you should spend your time on gmax, it is really great, I don't have any idea how long it would take for you to learn it, I would suggest start you own model from 0, and when you have problems request someone to teach you (share the model)...

Quote:


yeah, they should put a playstation for when they get bored!

Quote:


i dont think so
i know it is a new aircraft, but still, the f15 is older and can still kick both the f2's and lavi's asses. So age doesnt matter

am i a fighter pilot? no
are you a fighter pilot? probably not

that page doesnt say anything about it being better then the f16

plus, if they already had f16s, why bother building an unimproved version opf it?

i never said that they were the best planes in the world
while they are among the best, most are better then the lavi and f-2. Personally i like the sukoi-27/33/35/37 and mig-21/29. I like the EF2000, Rafale just to name a few

I doubt that the US government told them to stop, it was probably because of budjet problems. Also, why did you say that isreal didnt buy falcons? ??? you and even the site you told me said they have them!

the army has helicopters and A-10s, the marines have Harriers, why do they need a plane that gets shot down easily?

BTW-would anyone care to make an EF2000?(GMAX of course) but with a DVC, weapons, the works (maybe even compatible with cfs3 with weapons! )

While I'm jumping in the middle of this thread ... (it was about the LAVI at first, eh?) - My suggestion is to go through ALL the gmax tutorials.

There are "problems" with the P-38 tutorial in the sense that it was made to model an airplane, not to create a specific flyable FS aircraft.  The default tutorials do not tell you how to name the parts to have FS recognize them, etc.

There are other tutorials, but Hugh  Shoults' is the only one so far that I've seen is promising to be  a "start to finish" FS/gmax tutorial.

Quote:

The P-38's backdrops are actually reversed.  When you finally get it to FS2002, you will be flying "backwards".  IN gmax, select all parts and rotate them 180-deg around the vertical axis.

and as you can see, the default P-38 doesn't tell you how to make the FS model from your gmax source.


Quote:

acutally, it has nothing to do with the lavi
it even says in the picture, it resembles the ef2000
they probably copied it

The 1st pic is a total fake. It's a Prototype Eurofighter in German markins that was cleverly edited. There was a big discussion about it at SimHQ a while ago, and someone proved it to be a fake by posting a pic of the REAL photo, side by side, you'll notice that they changed markings, rounded the intakes a bit, and said "J-10, OMG!!!"

The 2nd pic however does look like the real thing.

Wolf, it is well known that Isreal was politically pressured to stop development of the Lavi. Either for fear of a technology leak, or fear of diminishing export sales, they were pressured to the extent they quit the new design. I think I remember Isreal recieved free F-15As (Ex-USAF old birds) or something like that for stopping the Lavi.

The new generation fighters like the Su-37, F-22, F-2, EF2000, Rafale and Gripen are all such a large breakthroughs in technology that you really can't compare them with 30-year old designs like the F-15C and so on. It's like comparing F-51s to F-4s. Different era, different need. Also different defense budget, political status, and of course, the need of your country. 

For example, I have no doubt the F-22 will be overkill if Japan were (Repeat, were) to get a squadron or 2 of them. Japan really has no need for a high-tech plane, as they already plan to get the US involved if any war breaks out on the homeland :p And also, the F-22 cannot do the Anti-Ship role the F-2 is supposed t accomplish with either AGM-84 Harpoons or ASM-1 (Japanes Anti-Ship missle) missiles.

On the other hand, equipping US squadrons with fighters like the F-2 would be IMHO bull$hit. Too short ranged, limited radar ability (Small radome), none of the new generation stealth technology, it wont be able to live in the modern battlefield. (Remember, Japan would be relying on US Fighter support anyway so Japan doesnt have to worry about this part)

Again, comparing fighters is really difficult stuff IMO.

Japan could buy MiG's from Russia. The MiG-29 as an air superiority fighter and the Su-27 as a fighter/attack aircraft

did you notice that the in the second pic the plane only has 1 engine?

why do love the look of the J-10?
the J-10 is a complete copy of the Lavi, beside the avionic. it was built by the Lavi model and with soviet technology.
he is allso craying some Phyton-3 misslles on his wings.
thats is a prove that Israel does sell China weopons.
it's really make me angry that China will have the Lavi (allmost the Lavi) and Israel that designed him don't.
by the way i'n doing pretty well with Gmax, and i believe that within 3-5 months i will control Gmax pretty well.

Does anyone know where can i find a Full Gmax tutorial, that also teach how to texture your Gmax model?.
The ONLY reosen that i'm learning how to do all this $hit is because i want Lavi in my design, if not that, i was never learning. Thats is really hard stuff .
I started to make the Lavi's wings and i have some pics of them, so i want it to Photorealistic, but i don't know how do i match the texture with the wanted part of the model. so i nead a Texturing tutorial for Gmax. not REpainting, because I already know that.

Well come on!
what do i have to do for you to answer me?
if there is no tutorial, say so, and if there is you will next hear from me when i will finish him!

can anyone just lock this topic... it's bugging me to put it kindly... much off the stuff is off-topic and has been answered about 10 times in this post already.

Ok everyone calm down here dudes.

Lets put things into order shall we?  Yes it will be a bit long but at least everything will be clear after that.

As asnamara said before - Erez, we will start working on the Lavi soon - so relax, sit back and wait!!

As an Israeli I know a lot of people in the military business. My girlfriend's father was one of the Lavi designers so I know quite a lot about it! Her father told me that the shape of the plane was not meant to be a brakethrough, it was based on various Aerdynamics technologies. The real deal with the LAVI he said, was the avionics suit or basically the technology inside the plane that was supposed to be done with a joint effort with the very experienced top Israeli Military companies.

It is hard to tell wether the LAVI could have been better than this or that but I believe that with the super high aircraft technology that exist nowadays in Israel the LAVI could have had one of the best avionics suits in the world, it was also meant to carry the Israeli PYTH-4, the most advanced air to air missile that exists nowadays.

About the magazine Erez is reading  - I read the same thing. Basically it says there that the F-2 is a great plane but no one is sure if the amount of money that was spent and will be spent is actually worth it. It was also said that F-16 block 60 Destert Falcon and The F-16I Suefa are going to be more advanced and cheaper by a half!!! Make your own conclusions . . .

About the J-10 stuff. From what I read and know I understood that Israel might have sold some aircraft technology to China to help with the J-10 production . . . TRUE Or NOT? what's for sure is that MAYBE!     

And last thing - to Wolf about the production of the LAVI.
Yes! The LAVI production was mainly stoped due to American pressure, the Americans wanted and still wants Israel to be dependent on them. Another reason is that the Americans did not want to have any competitors in the fighter jets market because after all the LAVI was supposed to be significantly cheaper than the F-16. It is unique to mention that right after Israel stopped the production of the LAVI the US supplied 100 F-16's to Israel at a low price . . . mmmmm . . . . Sounds very clear now.

Hope you liked my speech, and did not fell asleep in the middle of it . . . Any comments are more than welcome!! 
Please do not lock this topic, there is nothing wrong with it and it is actually very intresting, after all many users contribute to the argument   

Cheers

Alonik

FORGET IT!!!!!
I am not going to talk about the Lavi any more!!!
in fact i think i might delete the topic!
because i respect Simviation and it's forums, i won't go mad.
good bye falks.
see ya in a year.

the sun set down on me and the Lavi.
P.S: if there is NO tutorial than say it and don't let me wait so i won't have to ask so much!
http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/lavi8a.jpe
tragic end..... don't you think?
For the last time (I think!)
Erez Rochman, Israeli Patriot

                                                                 8)

             THE ISRAEL  AIRCRAFT INDUSTRY LAVI               
                                                         IS ON MY SITE

                                           WWW.jamaircraft.fr.st
                                   
                                                             8) 8)
                                       E.mail me to jamaircraft@st.fr

Quote:


salut jamair,
ca a l'air trop genial ,
tu le release quand?
si tu veux je peux le tester pour toi  ...
je suis alle sur ton site internet.. tes avions sont trop beaux

October, November, December, January, February and march.
six months. and still
Just get me right here, I'm not pushing and designer to make him, nor hurry up, because the dude above said he did it. Try enter his site. the "JamAircraft" page isn't there, and before this site has been revised, the download page was there, but the Lavi and the YF-23 were "project on progress" or something. that's been six months.
Does anyone even care? couse when we spoke about him here, there were some people who want too.
when I first asked for him it was my first post on the forums, and it became a very big topic (62 replies). But now I am a Gold member plus. I talked a lot on the furoms and helped out others too. But this was the topic that I always cared about, and it was never fully answered. I have been trying to design it for all this 6 months in Gmax, but there are always new problems and not too much time for me to solve.
Anyway, does anyone know what  happened with JAM_AIRCRAFT's Lavi or if anyone alse can/want to design it? and don't call me a pain in the ass, I have been patient enough.

ICE wrote:
Quote:

Yes, I understand you, no one can care about it like me. I will tell you the truth, the model that he did was really bad. he probably saw his 3-view and said (in bad English) "walla! zis iz a vanderful F-16!"
Bad model, $hit textures.
If I had a close instructor instad of reading endless tutorials, I could of done it, since I have more knowledge on him than I need. I actually seacrhed Google on every language including chiense for the word Lavi. I know every single small part in his beautiful body. Two days ago I even found an old IAF magazine from January 1987 that it's title was (in hebrew): "The Lavi Took Off".
I believe that if the Lavi would became opertional Israel would never buy (in the future) F-35's. or even that the JSF program wasn't even born.
I want to keep talking, but I just can't find the words. Gmax is too hard for me. This is my best try:

Maybe if I knew how to texture it, and trust me I have enough photos of him for life time, and beside I am a repainter, it would look better.
What do you think? and don't lie just to make me happy. tell me what you really think. It's only a basic model for now.

Quote:



LMAO!!!!!!!
This is really funny Erez!! asnamara is a bit upset about it but that's ok!! 

Anyway very nice so far - keep the progress it seems that you on the right track!

Alonik

Oh come on 

No need to lock a topic because of a little laugh . . .

Get real . . .


Alonik

Quote:


yea okay, sorry, i've overreacted

Just what the fuck are you talking about Oso???????!!?!?!!?
If it was about what I said (walla this a vanderful F-16) then I already said I'm truly sorry, but it seem that you just hate Israel!
But let's not get in to it OK? though I'd love to show from where the fish takes a pi$$!
BUT! if there are peoples here who believe that the State Of Israel should not be existed, or that the USA shouldn't support our small democracy, the you can
K-I-S-S M-Y A-$-$!

I'm not slamming the USA! look at the date of these posts! they are six months ago! Iv'e learned thing or two since than about designing and how hard it is and I think (and hope) that everyone alse knows that here.
The USA is Israel's best friend. without them I can guess that I was never borned, because Israel couldn't be, since our enemies were destroyng us to the ground. The Lavi is my favorite A/C and you can't find anyone that likes him better than me (beside the IAI and Moshe Arens), but even I admit that he was a mistake. as an aircaft. but not as for the technologies that we developed for him, with great and most friendly help from the US. In fact, we are selling these technologies all over world, including what even I see as an Israeli rudeness, selling most of the Lavi technology to China .
remember that Israel is in difficult times, and we sure need the US aid. none of us wants this money, but we have to accept it because if we don't, we'll die.
And in fact, what have I said about the US that wasn't true? all I said is that the Lavi project was cancelled from two main reasons. both of them because of the US. the Congress stop the funding and the second one is that the US pressured Israel to buy F-16's or F-18's.
And we so good things with this aid. we stop terror, funding the IDF and developing new and some of the best weapons on earth, and a good example is the Merkava MBT. or you think he was a waste of money and time too and we should of buy American "Abrams"? HELL NO. and I'm truly sorry (for you) if you think that I'm rude (and I'm not, it's just me.) than it's your own problem.
I can't believe that I wrote that long speech in such short time

Alonik wrote:
Quote:


Or me ....
And don't worry, me and Oso settled the things up.

Thanks

I'm gona have a small purim vacation, to let my hairs grow up agian, after plucking them on many tries on it. I'm considering rebuilding a new Lavi model from scratch, using the knowledge I gained through this model, and make him more aesthetic and beautiful. But this will take me a while. I don't know if I want to start all this crap of starting from tubes and boxes, couse it's just frustrating.

On second thought, Alonik. Would you be so kind as to point out just exactly what it was that I said about Israel that was offensive?

I believe that my posts concerned my disagreement with Erez.

Yes, it will be hard and I don't know if I should do it. for meanwhile I'll go on with the current model, finish it, texture it and FLY IT, and only then I'll see if I'd like to rebuild better one.