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Should this Board be Moved? (Read 6558 times)
Mar 10th, 2012 at 2:46pm

pete   Offline
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Well it just occurred to me that this is listed under 'Current Flight Simulator Series ›'


However as MS is listing this completely and by definition as a GAME. They have specifically stated that Flight is NOT a simulator.


Should we  really move the MS Flight board to 'Computer Games and Software'?


The downside is that MS Flight is very current and moving it down the forums will leave it kind of out of site ......


Thoughts?
« Last Edit: Mar 10th, 2012 at 4:28pm by pete »  

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Reply #1 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 2:58pm

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Good idea Pete I completely agree because your right, Flight isn't a sim.

A few people may disagree but it's a sound idea that I have been thinking about saying for a few days.

Also if this happens shouldn't Flight screenshots go in The Cage?
 

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Reply #2 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 3:05pm

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Ohhh boy, loaded question.
I don't think we've actually finnished debate on what SimV members actually consider it, though I'd say the leaning is strongly for game at this point.
That said, personnaly, I have no objection to where it is, but going with MS's own listing has a unit of measure makes the move unbiased, and completely fair.
Therefore I say move it.
 

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Reply #3 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 3:29pm

pete   Offline
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It's not an opinion -- it's Microsoft who specifically call it 'not a simulator' - 'a game' That is VERY specific from the team.
 

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Reply #4 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 3:46pm

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That's what I'm saying.
I don't dissagree with you, but there are most certainly at least a few who currently argue that it is a sim, and will argue.
Going by MS's own listing takes away the argument.
 

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Reply #5 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 3:47pm

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Sounds like a poll-worthy question if I ever heard one!  Cheesy
 

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Reply #6 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 3:48pm

alrot   Offline
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Grin Its shouldn't even BE here in a freeware Flight Simulator Site Pete...LOL

Should be in a a new part of the Forum name "Payware Because You Have No Other Choices"   Grin Grin Grin
 

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Reply #7 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 3:49pm

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Whatever it is and love it or hate it, it is what we have to work with and it is the latest flight game from MS.  Love it or not, this is what MSFS has become, so I say keep it here.  Don't put it above FSX, but leave it.  Tongue
 

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Reply #8 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 3:51pm

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IMO this is a sim, I use it in many the same ways as I use FS9 and FSX.

I start up Flight, start the plane using the included checklist, taxi, takeoff and fly to my destination using VFR, taxi to parking and shutdown using the checklist.

All without keeping score. How is that not a flight simulator?

Pete, I am a little disappointed in your bias, but it's your site, do with it what you wish.

cheers,
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Reply #9 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 4:02pm

pete   Offline
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Where's the bias? I'm asking a question.

It's not an opinion to state that MS have very specifically asked this not to be categorized as a simulator. That have very specifically asked this to be classified as a 'game' .. & they are very specific about this.

The question here is, as I put it : Should it be in the same category on this forum as 'Flight Simulators' ...

No bias. A simple question.
 

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Reply #10 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 4:13pm

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"The question here is, as I put it : Should it be in the same category on this forum as 'Flight Simulators' ... "

NO! If it were up to me I'd move it.

  Paul
 

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Reply #11 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 4:29pm

FoxThree   Offline
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I agree with Pete, it should be moved to "Computer Games and Software" - especially since even MS themselves have categorized as a game.
 
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Reply #12 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 4:31pm

pete   Offline
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Quote:
I agree with Pete


... agree? How did my question get translated into 'my opinion?'

Once again  ....
I am asking for your opinion
...  Smiley
 

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Reply #13 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 4:34pm

FoxThree   Offline
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My fault for speed reading. Embarrassed  A better way to put that...
It should be moved to "Computer Games and Software" - especially since even MS themselves have categorized as a game.
 
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Reply #14 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 4:41pm

andy190   Offline
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My Opinion: It's not a sim so it shouldn't be in Current Flight Simulator Series.

Also if it were moved down there would be less arguments & more posts asking for help because the people who argued wouldn't bother to scroll down & the only people that would scroll down would be people how needed help.

I think a few questions have gone unanswered because the answerers don't want to be branded "Haters".
 

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Reply #15 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 4:52pm

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andy190 wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 4:41pm:
My Opinion: It's not a sim so it shouldn't be in Current Flight Simulator Series.

Also if it were moved down there would be less arguments & more posts asking for help because the people who argued wouldn't bother to scroll down & the only people that would scroll down would be people who needed help.

I think a few questions have gone unanswered because the answerers don't want to be branded "Haters".


That sounds like a good idea,  if it means less unpleasant arguments!

I recall, the same blinding arguments occurred, during the introduction, and release, of FSX, but at least it was classified as a proper Flight Simulator at the time!

Paul... Smiley...!
 

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Reply #16 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 5:49pm

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Are there enough other items out there to warrant a category of "Flight Game Software" as a distinct category?

If not ... then is a sub-category under "Computer Games and Software" possible as MS Flight?

Basically,.... it just doesn't neatly "fit" anywhere.  Which is the whole problem with it.  It is a solution looking for a need.

best,

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Reply #17 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 5:59pm

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What's the category for Wii bowling? Same place...put it there... Tongue Grin Wink

 

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Reply #18 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 6:10pm

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Groundbound1 wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 5:59pm:
What's the category for Wii bowling? Same place...put it there... Tongue Grin Wink




Grin Grin Grin Wink
 

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Reply #19 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 6:14pm

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You know, it's not my place to tell you what your job is Pete, but I would suggest that by relegating Flight to the Games and Software category you'll be killing it as the current edition of FS before it even gets started.  We still do not know where MS is going with this and it COULD grow over time into something.  After a year or so when the major land masses are out and more planes are available, it may turn into a real world sim.

Right now, except for the cheesy missions, it's really not that much different in that you decide your own level of participation.  You decide if you do the walkarounds, you decide if you do the checklist.  You decide if you want to follow proper taxiing procedures.   Truth is, in FS, you can go out and hop in a plane and turn off the crash setting and taxi across the grass and take off from a hillside if you want.  That makes FS into a game. 

I am not trying to make Flight into FS11, and I'm not here to sing it's praises, but I do think a lot of people are looking at it from that viewpoint. People are pissed off at MS about the removal of 3rd party and I agree with that.  I think Flight is as much game as sim right now, but how about at least giving it a fair shake and let the dust settle before we reject it totally?
 

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Reply #20 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 6:33pm

alrot   Offline
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pete wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 4:31pm:
Quote:
I agree with Pete


... agree? How did my question get translated into 'my opinion?'

Once again  ....
I am asking for your opinion
...  Smiley


My Opinion Honestly ,Leave it here , Its a simulator but not like the ones we are used too

It better than FlightGear ,and some other simulators

  If M$ told you that this is a game ,remember it also have free Mode flight and that's when i becomes somekind of Simulator ..Its cool I'll give it some credit and Yes Win Nuts its right Love it or hate it ,

I like it,....
its free "Partially" it has a great Graphics  ,but I still hate Microsoft  Angry
Grin Grin Grin
 

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Reply #21 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 7:53pm

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I might add that if you want to move Flight, you might want to consider revamping the entire Current Simulator section.  Adding traffic and gates might be more of a development issue.  Flight school might be more of a real aviation thing.  If you're going to have Flight Gear, you might also want to consider adding X-Plane and whatever else is out there...
 

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Reply #22 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 7:56pm

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Wing Nut wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 6:14pm:
You know, it's not my place to tell you what your job is Pete, but I would suggest that by relegating Flight to the Games and Software category you'll be killing it as the current edition of FS before it even gets started...... 


That is sort of the point:  MS Flight *is not* the current edition of FS, as in "Flight Simulator".
 

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Reply #23 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 8:28pm

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www.microsoft.com/games/flightsimulatorx/

www.microsoft.com/games/flight/

Flight is Microsoft's successor to FSX. Both Flight and FSX are classified as games by the publisher and retailers no matter how much that ruffles serious simmers' feathers. I can't help but think it's a little bit pretentious to insist that flying make-believe airplanes on a computer screen MUST be called a simulator and not a game. And I say that as I'm paging through a detailed XB-70 checklist and making an IFR flight plan. Keep Flight where it is.
 

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Reply #24 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 8:36pm

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Reminds me of the old "engine or motor" debate... (BTW, the answer to that one is that all engines are motors, but not all motors are engines Tongue Grin)

I really can't believe that this is still up for debate. Huh

A question for anyone that still believes Flight is a sim rather than a game...

Would you (or do you think anyone else would) build a "sim-pit" based on Flight?

 

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Reply #25 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 8:49pm

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Groundbound1 wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 8:36pm:
I really can't believe that this is still up for debate. Huh

A question for anyone that still believes Flight is a sim rather than a game...

Would you (or do you think anyone else would) build a "sim-pit" based on Flight?


Not only can I believe this is still up for debate, if it ends up like it's console driving game "sim vs. arcade" counterpart, the debate will continue indefinitly, or at least as long as MS keeps putting out related product, and people keep playing.
Oddly enough I can see somebody making a sim-pit for it as well. There's got to be at least one Flight fanatic somewhere planning it right this minute... Grin
 

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Reply #26 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 9:11pm

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pete wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 2:46pm:
Well it just occurred to me that this is listed under 'Current Flight Simulator Series ›'


However as MS is listing this completely and by definition as a GAME. They have specifically stated that Flight is NOT a simulator.


Should we  really move the MS Flight board to 'Computer Games and Software'?


The downside is that MS Flight is very current and moving it down the forums will leave it kind of out of site ......


Thoughts?


Pete,

Here are a couple of paragraphs by Wikipedia describing this new 11th addition to the Microsoft flight simulation series. They refer to it as a Flight Simulation Game. I agree with their characterization of this new release and based on its similar and often  times improved features over FSX, I believe it should stay where it is.

Microsoft Flight is a flight simulation game from Microsoft Studios created as a successor to the long-running, discontinued Microsoft Flight Simulator series. The simulation game[2] is offered "free-to-play"; only charging gamers for downloading extra content, aircraft or scenery.[3] It takes an all new approach to that of the original series, instead focussing much more on the universal appeal of flight and aiming to engage a much wider audience.

Flight features new aircraft, scenery and terrain, a revamped weather engine, and new gameplay elements for users of all skill levels.[5] The new weather engine renders more realistic clouds and weather effects, including fog that blends well with the surrounding terrain, which Microsoft's previous flight simulator release, (Microsoft Flight Simulator X), was not capable of. As seen in the screenshots, the most noticeable graphical improvements are the newer shader models and the use of new DirectX versions. Part of the improvement is more realistic lighting and self shadowing on aircraft, as well as the ability for terrain and scenery objects to cast shadows onto other objects and terrain. The aircraft visual models are much improved over those of the previous flight simulator releases. Flight also features a new missions system.
 

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Reply #27 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 9:26pm

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Hehe. Ironically, the people at Wiki have been having an edit war over game vs. simulation for months now. It's the longest topic on the talk page. I think the most recent idea was that they should call it a "gimulator".
Do we have a gimulator section by any chance? Probabbly make things easier...
No, i'm not serious.  Wink
 

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Reply #28 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 9:28pm

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Ahh yes, Wikipedia...the only encyclopedia who's users can supply their own information...
 

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Reply #29 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 9:32pm

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Groundbound1 wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 9:28pm:
Ahh yes, Wikipedia...the only encyclopedia who's users can supply their own information...


There is a reason that those of us in the college acadermic community frown upon its use as a reference.  Wink

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Reply #30 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 11:49pm

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JBaymore wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 9:32pm:
Groundbound1 wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 9:28pm:
Ahh yes, Wikipedia...the only encyclopedia who's users can supply their own information...


There is a reason that those of us in the college acadermic community frown upon its use as a reference.  Wink

best,

...............john


John,

I am knowledgeable with Wikipedia, how it was formed, how it functions, and how it is funded. I do agree with their characterization of Microsoft Flight as a Flight Simulation Game. I could not have written it better.

Here are two more statements but this time from Microsoft Flight Home. I'm not a member of your college community but aren't they talking about flight simulated conditions?

"Whether you’re at 20,000 feet or just inches above the surface, you’ll experience visually stunning and realistic real-word landscapes with authentic weather patterns, terrain, landmarks and flight physics. See the world from inside a highly detailed and accurate cockpit, or zoom out and fly using the exterior airplane view."
Weather

"Click any of the weather options on the Flight Conditions screen to view a brief description of the associated conditions. Changing the weather can dramatically affect visibility and aircraft control. In conditions with heavy rain or clouds, it is more difficult to see, forcing you to rely on cockpit instruments. In high-wind conditions"

You made the statement that you and your college academic community frown upon using Wikipedia as a reference. Will you tell me why so I will know if I am breaking some kind of rule.
 

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Reply #31 - Mar 11th, 2012 at 12:20am

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There it is, right on the cover of my copy of FSX Gold.

Games for Windows.

Microsoft evidently considers FSX a game too, so I guess that forum is in the wrong category too.

cheers,
Joe
 

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Reply #32 - Mar 11th, 2012 at 3:08am

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JoBee wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 12:20am:
There it is, right on the cover of my copy of FSX Gold.

Games for Windows.

Microsoft evidently considers FSX a game too, so I guess that forum is in the wrong category too.

cheers,
Joe

There you have it. The definition is the opinion of the user. Microsoft has always considered FS a game. As a matter of fact so have I.  Wink
 

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Reply #33 - Mar 11th, 2012 at 7:32am

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Flight Ace wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 11:49pm:
You made the statement that you and your college academic community frown upon using Wikipedia as a reference. Will you tell me why so I will know if I am breaking some kind of rule.



I don't have to write it.  Here's a smattering:

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/01/26/wiki

http://gnovisjournal.org/2009/10/29/academic-views-on-and-uses-of-wikipedia-a-co...

http://www.infotoday.com/online/mar08/Badke.shtml

http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2007/feb/07/profs-question-students-wikipedia-...

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Reply #34 - Mar 11th, 2012 at 9:19am

alrot   Offline
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ftldave wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 8:28pm:
www.microsoft.com/games/flightsimulatorx/

www.microsoft.com/games/flight/

Flight is Microsoft's successor to FSX. Both Flight and FSX are classified as games by the publisher and retailers no matter how much that ruffles serious simmers' feathers. I can't help but think it's a little bit pretentious to insist that flying make-believe airplanes on a computer screen MUST be called a simulator and not a game. And I say that as I'm paging through a detailed XB-70 checklist and making an IFR flight plan. Keep Flight where it is.


You can say anything you want , this forum ,free will , But My sense my brain tells me MSFT will never be the replace of anything
For a simple reason , I have EYES ,and common sense

ACE TEAM remember? those who made the entire world in MSFS series and then M$ Sold it ?
That then this ACE team Was destroy By the same Microsoft for money?

The Only way that this Flight or further Fight Version would "Come to replace FSX" Its by gather & bringing back the team who spend years and several versions of MSFS to build the whole world,but as we and the whole world knows that never going to happen ..its M$

so yes Keep saying that "Flight" its the best Simulator ever made like a FANATIC RELIGIOUS PERSON  , But people does not buy that ..

Flight Will be forgotten and buried .While FSX will be Duplicated   

 
« Last Edit: Mar 11th, 2012 at 12:38pm by alrot »  

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Reply #35 - Mar 11th, 2012 at 1:21pm

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In comparison to FSX it is clear that Flight is currently not as fully featured and offers less opportunity for modification and configuration. However I believe that Flight is just as much a flight simulation game as FSX. Therefore it should stay where it is.

It would be nice to see this forum becoming more of a support and informational resource similar to other sim forums. I've noticed that even Avsim's Flight forum has moved towards that.

As some have already pointed out it may well be worth reviewing whether Flight School and Adding Aircraft Traffic etc should be relocated to a different area of the site.
 
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Reply #36 - Mar 11th, 2012 at 2:45pm

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JBaymore wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 7:32am:
Flight Ace wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 11:49pm:
You made the statement that you and your college academic community frown upon using Wikipedia as a reference. Will you tell me why so I will know if I am breaking some kind of rule.



I don't have to write it.  Here's a smattering:

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/01/26/wiki

http://gnovisjournal.org/2009/10/29/academic-views-on-and-uses-of-wikipedia-a-co...

http://www.infotoday.com/online/mar08/Badke.shtml

http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2007/feb/07/profs-question-students-wikipedia-...

best,

................john


John,

I had already, sometime in the past, reviewed these articles except the one from Yale. As you probably already know that Wikipedia favors consensus over credentials. In simpler terms getting the acceptance of many minds even though one original dissenter may be a professor at Harvard. I learned this, not by completing my graduate degree at USC, but in a major corporation that made decisions based on reaching consensus of many at all levels of education. I also learned this during my flying career determining the best and safest method for approaching and landing a helicopter on a pinnacle at high density altitudes or when attaching a foreign object on an airplane, then determining the new flight dynamics, or the best method to survive in the desert if forced down. I receive two papers in the morning, the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal. I don't fully agree with either, but keep them both for their, what I think, are good but differing editorials of the news.

None of the articles you posted for me reference Wikipedia, support not reading their excellent viewpoint of Microsoft Flight. Their article is in tune with Microsoft's description with the one exception of adding the word simulator. And as I said earlier, I agree with them - when you fly MF in free flight it is a flight simulator. When you select a mission, challenge, or Aerocache Hunt, it becomes a Flight Simulator Game.

Now in reference to your college academic community, is this a special identified group? I know that you are not including me considering our differing viewpoints.

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Reply #37 - Mar 11th, 2012 at 3:43pm

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MS probably just get their PR staff to do the wiki entries - almost 100%    ... so it's really just an ad.
& it will get vandalized ... they'll get the notification email and fix it -- & this can also be done automatically ..


 

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Reply #38 - Mar 11th, 2012 at 4:18pm

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Flight Ace wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 2:45pm:
................  As you probably already know that Wikipedia favors consensus over credentials. In simpler terms getting the acceptance of many minds even though one original dissenter may be a professor at Harvard. I learned this, not by completing my graduate degree at USC, but in a major corporation that made decisions based on reaching consensus of many at all levels of education. ...........


Wikipedia's issues are exactly that lack of some form of seriously accredited peer review, and as Pete just pointed out...... lack of control of content generation.

I'm well aware of the idea and import of concensus... as someone who has spent much time working in Japan  Wink.

best,

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Reply #39 - Mar 11th, 2012 at 4:52pm

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Wiki info is of good value for light info on some stuff (I use it often for a general light info resource about historical stuff, etc ... but it's not in any way authenticated material) -

To take it as a fact site -- or particularly to read it as fact about commercial products - is really hanging your brains out to dry ....
 

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Reply #40 - Mar 11th, 2012 at 7:31pm

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Case in point.
Years ago I lived in a very small town/village. Population less than three hundred, out in the middle of cornfields.
Out of curiosity, not long after Wiki started becoming known, I looked up the town just to see if anyone had listed it.  For years now, there has been an edit war, where at any given time the town is listed has a suburb of Chicago, or a subdivision of McHenry. It is niether. Not less than an hour from McHenry, and quite a bit further from Chicago, it is it's own villiage, with it's own independant government.
Every once in awhile I check it, and once in awhile it's correct, but that's rare. Have no idea why it happens. Today it's correct, next month it won't be.
Sometimes when you put a bunch of monkeys in a room with a typewriter, you don't get Shakespeare.  Sometimes you just get a room full of poo and a broken typewriter.
 

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Reply #41 - Mar 12th, 2012 at 5:41am

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Game or simulator. I suspect that MS Flight will not be getting a certification for use from the FAA any time soon for use in instrument training Grin

What MS call FSX on the box is not really relevant, after all a Porsche tell us a Cayenne is a 4 wheel drive off roader Grin

FSX like all MS entertainment products has a game label only due to MS wanting a streamlined product category. Otherwise there would be debate about what catagory any game could go into. Car race "simulations", game or sim. Halo, game or futuristic military simulator. Game covers everything and saves the arguments. As for FSX, the title tells us everything we need to know no matter what is on a flag in the corner of the box. FSX, Flight Simulation 10.
MS Flight in MS's own words is a game, advertised as a game, sold as a game and aimed at the gamer market.
For these reasons, it should be in either "games and software" or possibly "other sites"

That's my opinion

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Reply #42 - Mar 12th, 2012 at 6:25am

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expat wrote on Mar 12th, 2012 at 5:41am:
Game or simulator. I suspect that MS Flight will not be getting a certification for use from the FAA any time soon for use in instrument training Grin

What MS call FSX on the box is not really relevant, after all a Porsche tell us a Cayenne is a 4 wheel drive off roader Grin

FSX like all MS entertainment products has a game label only due to MS wanting a streamlined product category. Otherwise there would be debate about what catagory any game could go into. Car race "simulations", game or sim. Halo, game or futuristic military simulator. Game covers everything and saves the arguments. As for FSX, the title tells us everything we need to know no matter what is on a flag in the corner of the box. FSX, Flight Simulation 10.
MS Flight in MS's own words is a game, advertised as a game, sold as a game and aimed at the gamer market.
For these reasons, it should be in either "games and software" or possibly "other sites"

That's my opinion

Matt

VERY good point. I forgot that flight schools use FSX -- and why does anyone think Lockheed Martin purchased it?

NO flight school would consider MS Flight as a training product .... the thought of it is a joke.

Anyway there is no debate about it. I have it from the inside at MS that the 'Flight Simulator' series was created and treated as a genuine Flight Simulator for the PC. Whereas they made it clear to me that 'Flight' is being created and marketed as a flying game - NOT a simulator.
 

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Reply #43 - Mar 12th, 2012 at 6:27am

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I agree with those pushing the 'give it some time' line. It is too hard to tell currently where it will lead. In its current form I don't suspect I will use it much, however that is not due to its being a 'game.' Rather, it is due to its pricing model and lack of third party support.

The discussions here seem to have proved that it is arguable both ways (Simulator vs game), I think what it becomes will define it, not what it currently is.  Smiley
 
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Reply #44 - Mar 12th, 2012 at 7:40am

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The whole 'simulation vs. game' argument is specious at best. It boils down to this; the more you have invested in anything, the more you will be resistant to that thing changing.  If you have spent thousands of dollars on pay ware and thousands more on a home built cockpit and thousands more building the perfect rig to fly it with, of course you're going to ascribe as much prestige as you can to FS. If you're more casual about your flying, then it won't be as big a concern.

It's important to recognize that neither of these viewpoints are wrong or right, but just different.  FS is both a game and a simulator and so is Flight.  Once again, you decide your own level of participation...

To be followed up on later...
 

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Reply #45 - Mar 12th, 2012 at 10:41am

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Camel_Moe wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 7:31pm:
Case in point.
Years ago I lived in a very small town/village. Population less than three hundred, out in the middle of cornfields.
Out of curiosity, not long after Wiki started becoming known, I looked up the town just to see if anyone had listed it.  For years now, there has been an edit war, where at any given time the town is listed has a suburb of Chicago, or a subdivision of McHenry. It is niether. Not less than an hour from McHenry, and quite a bit further from Chicago, it is it's own villiage, with it's own independant government.
Every once in awhile I check it, and once in awhile it's correct, but that's rare. Have no idea why it happens. Today it's correct, next month it won't be.
Sometimes when you put a bunch of monkeys in a room with a typewriter, you don't get Shakespeare.  Sometimes you just get a room full of poo and a broken typewriter.


First let me say that your posts are very humorous - "room full of poo and a broken typewriter" - you got to be kidding me. However, I just checked your spelling of poo with Wikipedia and they immediately changed it to poop, wait - wait - just a moment, somebody just changed it back to poo! Now tell me that wasn't you.
 

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Reply #46 - Mar 12th, 2012 at 10:58am

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Lol, Frankly, I changed it to "toilet surprise" just last week, but was promptly overridden by some dedicated experts who really know their feces..... Wink Grin
 

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Reply #47 - Mar 12th, 2012 at 11:56am

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Camel_Moe wrote on Mar 12th, 2012 at 10:58am:
Lol, Frankly, I changed it to "toilet surprise" just last week, but was promptly overridden by some dedicated experts who really know their feces..... Wink Grin


In all seriousness, Wikipedia is referred by some as a virtual on-line Encyclopedia. I read somewhere that PC Pro created an article and purposely put errors in it, submitted it to Wikipedia, and within hours it was corrected. I would like to think this forum is a friendly discussion group looking for help or just information while not getting involved in worrying whether a post meets some sort of academia standard.

The way I look for new product information is first go to the source of the infromation. In the case of Microsoft Flight, go to the Microsoft Studio. Then if one desires, check several more sources which could or not be Wikipedia. This will give you a better perspective about the new product. In most instances, if it was Wikipedia, Microsoft would have already fed them their information and the only thing new would be their own characteration of the product. In my case, they referred to Microsoft Flight Game as Microsoft Flight Simulator Game which I totally agree. I have also found that Wikipedia has a very sophyticated consensus model with far more internal checks and balances than I first envisioned.

Having said all this and because of the apparent distrust by some in using Wikipedia as a source, I will never refer to them again in this forum.
 

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Reply #48 - Mar 12th, 2012 at 12:45pm

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I think it should be moved to computer games and software. I like your original post saying that the down side would be it would dissapear within the thread area as it is a game..........AND? Just my opinion Wink Grin
 

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Reply #49 - Mar 12th, 2012 at 12:55pm

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It's the 11th version of the Microsoft Flight Simulator series. Leave it where it is.
 

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Reply #50 - Mar 12th, 2012 at 1:06pm

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Flight Ace wrote on Mar 12th, 2012 at 12:55pm:
It's the 11th version of the Microsoft Flight Simulator series. Leave it where it is.

The flight simulator series is discontineud...
 

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Reply #51 - Mar 12th, 2012 at 1:41pm

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jetprop wrote on Mar 12th, 2012 at 1:06pm:
Flight Ace wrote on Mar 12th, 2012 at 12:55pm:
It's the 11th version of the Microsoft Flight Simulator series. Leave it where it is.

The flight simulator series is discontineud...


Your right, it is the 11th Flight Simulator Game they produced. So leave it where it is.
 

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Reply #52 - Mar 12th, 2012 at 2:50pm

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An interesting thought is what happens in a few years when Flight has brought out everything and starts looking a little long in the tooth.  Will we have to start all over again and buy the entire planet and planes or will Flight continue to evolve forever from what it is now?  I am not a defender or a hater of Flight.  I don't think it replaces FSX, but I am not ready to throw it on the trash heap either.  I understand MS wanting a fresh start, though I don't agree with the execution of it.  But if I get five years down the road and have to start again from scratch, I will be one highly pissed off flight (not the title) enthusiast.

I wonder if MS realizes that we DO have memories, after all...
 

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Reply #53 - Mar 12th, 2012 at 3:36pm

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First off, nothing personal towards Wing Nut. I am quoting your post simply as a launching pad to post some thoughts.

Wing Nut wrote on Mar 12th, 2012 at 2:50pm:
Will we have to start all over again and buy the entire planet and planes or will Flight continue to evolve...

Isn't that what we have had to do with every version of FS?

While a lot of addons have been backwards compatible, not all have.

And providing backwards compatibility was probably one of the primary reasons for ACES rehashing old code for new versions instead of starting from scratch. Was that their decision or Microsoft's?

How many complaints have been posted in this forum, and others, over the years complaining about ACES retaining legacy code and not utilizing the latest technologies?

Wing Nut wrote on Mar 12th, 2012 at 2:50pm:
I don't think it replaces FSX,... ...

It was never intended to do that. Anyone who thinks it was simply has not been paying attention.

Wing Nut wrote on Mar 12th, 2012 at 2:50pm:
...if I get five years down the road and have to start again from scratch, ...

Again, isn't that what we have done in the past?

Now we have the beginnings of a new flight sim.......erm, simulated experience, or simulator, that is not tied to code based in the stone ages of personal computing.

Is it FSNext? No.

Do I wish for a new full world, AI populated, ATC controlled with accurate airspace, terrain, flight dynamics flight simulator? You bet.

Do I want it locked to the performance-limiting core of the past, released before it's fixed, followed by Service Paks, each with their own SDK? No friggin' way.

I think that an important idea to remember is, unlike MSFS in which each version was released basically complete (then patched), Flight is in it's infancy and the potential for growth is unlimited.

Back to the issue of "is Flight a simulator or a game?", it's both. It is what you (the flight simming community) want it to be and what you want to get out of it. If you want to play like a game, go ahead, have fun.

If you want to use it as a flight simulator, you can, granted to a different level of immersion than FS9 and FSX,....so far. Personally, I find it very realistic, as I am a GA nut and former resident of Hawaii.

Thanks for reading.

cheers,
Joe
 

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Reply #54 - Mar 12th, 2012 at 5:27pm

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No, actually, it's not.  There are plenty of instances where a plane can be ported from FS9 to FSX with minimal effort.  The CFS2 planes could even be ported into FS9.

Backwards compatibility will never be perfect, but it is an excellent tool.  I'm sure right now there's someone, somewhere trying to figure out how to convert a .mdl to a .model.

BTW, I just noticed today that I've barely even touched Flight for the past week while FSX has been running pretty steady.
 

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Reply #55 - Mar 12th, 2012 at 5:35pm

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Wing Nut, where did you read that Flight's planes are in .model format?

From what I know it's all in .dll format.
 

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Reply #56 - Mar 12th, 2012 at 5:40pm

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Another thread on this board.
 

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Reply #57 - Mar 12th, 2012 at 6:31pm

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I think the real point is not exactly backwards comparability of add-ons relative to how they work with MSFS. 
Discounting the computer costs, an expense that occurs with every new generation of technology anyway, you could buy any MSFS title, run it, and never buy a thing for it again. You had a larger stable of planes, with a variety to choose from,  a whole world, and assorted features like AI, right out of the box.   
When the next one came out, true you could bring things from past FS versions, but you didn't need to, you still had a whole world, ATC, default aircraft, etc.
Now you have to buy the whole program bit by bit, for a total that could reach into the hundreds of dollars or more, just to get a comparable content when compared to what was standard in a MSFS title.
So the real questions are: Is every version of Flight going to start fresh, and force the user to spend hundreds of dollars yet again to get the basic content and features that approximate an MSFS title? Or, on the flip side, is this it one continually evolving program that get's added to forever? The latter being unlikely just because eventually you'd have an antiquated bit of software with compatability issues pertaining to modern hardware in the future.
This brings us to another question: If there are new versions, and you can use old DLC, wouldn't the sales model eventually implode, as each one would sell less DLC than the previous as people became content with their collections?
 

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Reply #58 - Mar 12th, 2012 at 6:34pm

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Camel_Moe wrote on Mar 12th, 2012 at 6:31pm:
I think the real point is not exactly backwards comparability of add-ons relative to how they work with MSFS. 
Discounting computer costs, an expense that occurs with every new generation of technology anyway, you could buy any MSFS title, run it, and never buy a thing for it again. You had a larger stable of planes, with a variety to choose from,  a whole world, and assorted features like AI, right out of the box.   
When the next one came out, true you could bring things from past FS versions, but you didn't need to, you still had a whole world, ATC, default aircraft, etc.
Now you have to buy the whole program bit by bit, for a total that could reach into the hundreds of dollars or more, just to get a comparable content when compared to what was standard in a MSFS title.
So the real questions are: Is every version of Flight going to start fresh, and force the user to spend hundreds of dollars yet again to get the basic content and features that approximate an MSFS title? Or, on the flip side, is this it one continually evolving program that get's added to forever? The latter being unlikely just because eventually you'd have an antiquated bit of software with compatability issues pertaining to modern hardware in the future. Bringing us to the last question: If there are new versions, and you can use old DLC, wouldn't the sales model eventually implode, as each one would sell less DLC than the previous as people became content with their collections?


I think that's what I said...  Wink
 

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Reply #59 - Mar 12th, 2012 at 6:37pm

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Wing Nut wrote on Mar 12th, 2012 at 6:34pm:
Camel_Moe wrote on Mar 12th, 2012 at 6:31pm:
I think the real point is not exactly backwards comparability of add-ons relative to how they work with MSFS. 
Discounting computer costs, an expense that occurs with every new generation of technology anyway, you could buy any MSFS title, run it, and never buy a thing for it again. You had a larger stable of planes, with a variety to choose from,  a whole world, and assorted features like AI, right out of the box.   
When the next one came out, true you could bring things from past FS versions, but you didn't need to, you still had a whole world, ATC, default aircraft, etc.
Now you have to buy the whole program bit by bit, for a total that could reach into the hundreds of dollars or more, just to get a comparable content when compared to what was standard in a MSFS title.
So the real questions are: Is every version of Flight going to start fresh, and force the user to spend hundreds of dollars yet again to get the basic content and features that approximate an MSFS title? Or, on the flip side, is this it one continually evolving program that get's added to forever? The latter being unlikely just because eventually you'd have an antiquated bit of software with compatability issues pertaining to modern hardware in the future. Bringing us to the last question: If there are new versions, and you can use old DLC, wouldn't the sales model eventually implode, as each one would sell less DLC than the previous as people became content with their collections?


I think that's what I said...  Wink



Yep, was trying to help clarify, as he didn't seem to see a difference. Wink Somehow I buggered up the qoutes that tied it all together. They ran away. Cry


I can also point out an example of a game, that while not being free to play, has a simular DLC model.
EA's "The Sims" series.
What EA does, and why I lost interest, is put out new versions with some basic function updates to each one (Sims, 1,2,3),  but most of the popular content stripped from each one.
Each version starts out with has little of the previous DLC/expansion content has they can get away with without causing a revolt, and then they sell it all back to you again in "new" DLC and expansion packs.
The base game was improved enough from Sims 1 to 2, that I put up with it, but by the 3rd version it just wasn't worth buying everything again a third time.
I have the feeling that's where MS is going to try and go with Flight .
 

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Reply #60 - Mar 12th, 2012 at 7:14pm

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I don't care anymore where the 'Flight' board is located. I've been reading speculation and opinions for well over a year and even offered up a few of my thoughts now and then. Microsoft wants your money, so the chance of seeing another open source type of simulator from MS in the future, is dead and buried. So if you like Flight, then happy trails to you. If you don't like it, you know the path to take.  Cool
 

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Reply #61 - Mar 12th, 2012 at 7:42pm

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Wing Nut wrote on Mar 12th, 2012 at 5:27pm:
No, actually, it's not. 

If this is directed to me, sorry I don't understand what your referring to. What's not?

Wing Nut wrote on Mar 12th, 2012 at 5:27pm:
There are plenty of instances where a plane can be ported from FS9 to FSX with minimal effort.  The CFS2 planes could even be ported into FS9.

I never said they could not, done a few myself.

Wing Nut wrote on Mar 12th, 2012 at 5:27pm:
Backwards compatibility will never be perfect, but it is an excellent tool.  I'm sure right now there's someone, somewhere trying to figure out how to convert a .mdl to a .model.

I don't want backwards compatibility if it requires staying with the same old CPU clogging code that cannot take advantage of all the GPU advances that have happened in the last couple of years.

And yes there is a locked thread at Avsim in which members are cracking Flight and extracting models. That isn't the hard part, getting modified models back in will be the challenge. But that isn't "backwards compatibility", technically it's theft and will remain so until Microsoft releases an SDK, which I think they will at some point.

Camel_Moe wrote on Mar 12th, 2012 at 6:31pm:
...you could buy any MSFS title, run it, and never buy a thing for it again. You had a larger stable of planes, with a variety to choose from,  a whole world, and assorted features like AI, right out of the box.   

Granted, I don't deny that.

Camel_Moe wrote on Mar 12th, 2012 at 6:31pm:
Now you have to buy the whole program bit by bit, for a total that could reach into the hundreds of dollars or more, just to get a comparable content when compared to what was standard in a MSFS title. 


"Comparable content" is where you lose me. I think to get Flight quality visuals in FSX most people spend hundreds of dollars on Ultimate Terrain, GEX, FEX, REX, Active Sky, addon airports, you can go to Orbx alone and spend close to a grand.

I know that Flight doesn't meet all those addons in terms of quality .....yet. But it might in the future.

Wow, has this wandered off-topic.  Smiley

cheers,
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Reply #62 - Mar 12th, 2012 at 9:32pm

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Ahhh, ok, I see where I lost you. I'm refering to quantity, not quality.
"Comparable content" in the extreme sense would be a quantity of scenery, aircraft, features, etc, equal to what MSFS has out of the box.
However, say for me, I need at minimum, the whole US. Going by the current prices and areas available, a pretty safe guess for me to do that would be at least $100, probably more, and not including new aircraft.
Ok, so I plunk down, say, $130 for the entire US, and some planes. I've allready more than doubled what I had to spend JUST to do what I do with MSFS in the US, still minus frills like AI. Never mind the rest of the world for this example. Just pretend all I needed was the US, and I was willing to pay that much to use it in Flight.
So now the question is, for a "Flight 2", do I have to start over and plunk that money down to get the same stuff again?
Alternately, is there a "Flight 2" where I can still use my previous "flight 1" DLC, but I now have very little reason to invest because I have all I want, and thus MS makes significantly less from me?
Last possible scenario, is "Flight 1" all there ever is untill it becomes obsolete, and that's the end of the Flight series? Fini. No more.
That's where we were going with it.

As for the OT.....My bad, I think I derailed us on page 2, talking about Wiki.... Embarrassed
 

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Reply #63 - Mar 12th, 2012 at 10:04pm

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JoBee wrote on Mar 12th, 2012 at 7:42pm:
[quote author=0807111A020D630 link=1331408790/54#54 date=1331587679]I think to get Flight quality visuals in FSX most people spend hundreds of dollars on Ultimate Terrain, GEX, FEX, REX, Active Sky, addon airports, you can go to Orbx alone and spend close to a grand.


You forgot SEX!  Sound Environment Extreme...   Cheesy
 

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Reply #64 - Mar 12th, 2012 at 11:40pm

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Aren't you glad you asked the question, Pete?   Grin

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Reply #65 - Mar 13th, 2012 at 11:28am

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JBaymore wrote on Mar 12th, 2012 at 11:40pm:
Aren't you glad you asked the question, Pete?   Grin

best,

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What was the question again?   Cheesy

Seriously, this is almost the only thread going in a bit over two days, the other being a small thread for joystick help.
What it really comes down to, is that it's Pete's site, he can put Flight under the "Wierd things that give me headaches" section if he wants. He was thoughtfull enough to ask for member opinions instead of just up and moving it.
Frankly, I doubt that any move, or not moving of the board, will effect Flight itself in any real tangible fashion. We'll all just continue on with it just the same, OT silliness and all, regardless of where it ends up. If Flight is going to die, board location isn't going to speed that up, or stop it.
 

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Reply #66 - Mar 13th, 2012 at 12:20pm

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You're right moe ... it wouldn't make any difference ...

I usually arrange boards in terms of relevance to this site and popularity ....


So .... I can see the 'Flight' board being moved down to the bottom of this section once the novelty has worn off .... & then let's see where it goes in terms of what people are saying  about it ...
 

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Reply #67 - Mar 13th, 2012 at 1:05pm

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pete wrote on Mar 13th, 2012 at 12:20pm:
So .... I can see the 'Flight' board being moved down to the bottom of this section once the novelty has worn off .....

you wont have to wait too long anyways..

6 month max.......

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« Last Edit: Mar 13th, 2012 at 6:53pm by alrot »  

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Reply #68 - Mar 13th, 2012 at 3:00pm

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OK,people.

Those who say that you need to spend loads on FSX to make it as good as flight are wrong.

I use a pc of roughly 300/400 euro,FSX for 20 euro and the rest is all freeware,and look at my shots!
I run it at 12-20 FPS with most setting near/at the top wich is all I need.
 

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Reply #69 - Mar 13th, 2012 at 6:11pm

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jetprop wrote on Mar 13th, 2012 at 3:00pm:
OK,people.

Those who say that you need to spend loads on FSX to make it as good as flight are wrong.

I use a pc of roughly 300/400 euro,FSX for 20 euro and the rest is all freeware,and look at my shots!
I run it at 12-20 FPS with most setting near/at the top wich is all I need.


Heck, since 1982 I could count all the payware I bought on one hand, up untill last month that is. Now all my saved "just in case there is an FS11" hardware money is being thrown at payware like ORBX and REX, Corenado, Just Flight, etc.  That's more about a recent desire to support 3rd party than it is about needing the stuff to get what I want out of FSX.
I just finnaly decided that now that it looks like FSX is going to be the last of it's kind from MS, I might as well "supercharge" it with the funds, and give the payware people some support in the process.
Freeware has done it for me just fine for years, and if I thought there was a next MSFS in the pipe, I probably wouldn't be buying all that payware now either.
 

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Reply #70 - Mar 14th, 2012 at 1:19pm

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Pete,

Great choice and your justification for it is sound.

I just picked up on an article in the Wall Street Journal and thought it should be posted as a separate subject, however I am posting it here since the discussion reference this article was discussed here.

Here is the Headline in the Marketplace Section of the Wall Street Journal I received this morning.

"End of Era for Britannica"

Here are a couple of quotes from the article.

"But the company has a long way to go before it can touch the online presence of Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia supported by the nonprofit Wikipedia Foundation. Wikipedia appears as the No 1 result on Google for 56% of searches, according to a 2012 study by Intelligent Positioning Ltd , a U.K. based agency that helps business increase their online traffic."

Mr. Cauz, President of Encyclopedia Britannica, said, and again I quote.

"The company has already taken other pages out of Wikipedias's book. Britannica on line allows readers to make revisions to the encyclopedia articles which are then published by editors after a review process."

My source for the above is the latest press release of the Wall Street Journal. Makes me wonder, will some Universities now black list Britannica?
 

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Reply #71 - Mar 14th, 2012 at 1:42pm

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It is my understanding that the Britannica review process will remain very much the same, so I would imagine the objections to referencing the Britannica online will be about what they are now.  It's not like people will be able to make changes "wiki style", on the fly.
However, universities generally frown on using the encyclopedia has a primary reference already.
 

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Reply #72 - Mar 14th, 2012 at 6:40pm

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Quote:
Heck, since 1982 I could count all the payware I bought on one hand, up untill last month that is. Now all my saved "just in case there is an FS11" hardware money is being thrown at payware like ORBX and REX, Corenado, Just Flight, etc


Hey don't support Carenado man - they are the ones being paid highly making the planes for M$ Flight and making a good killing from M$ by doing this. Also some of the other scenery guys are contracted to M$ for lots of $$$$. Not sure which ones making scenery but I know for sure Carenado is making props for MS Flight.
 

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Reply #73 - Mar 14th, 2012 at 7:00pm

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striker wrote on Mar 14th, 2012 at 6:40pm:
Quote:
Heck, since 1982 I could count all the payware I bought on one hand, up untill last month that is. Now all my saved "just in case there is an FS11" hardware money is being thrown at payware like ORBX and REX, Corenado, Just Flight, etc


Hey don't support Carenado man - they are the ones being paid highly making the planes for M$ Flight and making a good killing from M$ by doing this. Also some of the other scenery guys are contracted to M$ for lots of $$$$. Not sure which ones making scenery but I know for sure Carenado is making props for MS Flight.


And where did you read that Carenado are making Props for Flight?

It doesn't matter if Carenado are making Props for Flight, if we buy their FSX stuff more than their Flight stuff then they will realise what they've signed up for.
 

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Reply #74 - Mar 14th, 2012 at 8:43pm

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striker wrote on Mar 14th, 2012 at 6:40pm:
Quote:
Heck, since 1982 I could count all the payware I bought on one hand, up untill last month that is. Now all my saved "just in case there is an FS11" hardware money is being thrown at payware like ORBX and REX, Corenado, Just Flight, etc


Hey don't support Carenado man - they are the ones being paid highly making the planes for M$ Flight and making a good killing from M$ by doing this. Also some of the other scenery guys are contracted to M$ for lots of $$$$. Not sure which ones making scenery but I know for sure Carenado is making props for MS Flight.


Man, where do people get this stuff...   Roll Eyes
 

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Reply #75 - Mar 14th, 2012 at 9:06pm

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Wing Nut wrote on Mar 14th, 2012 at 8:43pm:
striker wrote on Mar 14th, 2012 at 6:40pm:
Quote:
Heck, since 1982 I could count all the payware I bought on one hand, up untill last month that is. Now all my saved "just in case there is an FS11" hardware money is being thrown at payware like ORBX and REX, Corenado, Just Flight, etc


Hey don't support Carenado man - they are the ones being paid highly making the planes for M$ Flight and making a good killing from M$ by doing this. Also some of the other scenery guys are contracted to M$ for lots of $$$$. Not sure which ones making scenery but I know for sure Carenado is making props for MS Flight.


Man, where do people get this stuff...   Roll Eyes




Wikipedia perhaps?  Grin
 

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Reply #76 - Mar 14th, 2012 at 9:52pm

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Well. let's give the man a chance here. 

Striker, you want to name a source for your information?  Because if you can't at best you're spreading rumor and at worst, you are spinning libel against one of the most respected design teams in the Flight Simulation market.

So please, provide us with a link to your source...

BTW, does anyone know anybody over at Carenado so we can contact them and check on this?
 

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Reply #77 - Mar 15th, 2012 at 12:34am

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THIS is why I have less than 300 posts since 2002. Nobody can derail a thread like the camel can.... Grin
 

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Reply #78 - Mar 16th, 2012 at 5:31pm

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Camel_Moe wrote on Mar 14th, 2012 at 1:42pm:
It is my understanding that the Britannica review process will remain very much the same, so I would imagine the objections to referencing the Britannica online will be about what they are now.  It's not like people will be able to make changes "wiki style", on the fly.
However, universities generally frown on using the encyclopedia has a primary reference already.


Lets face it, most Universities teach students how to think and form their own opinions based on information obtained from multiple sources. As for any College/University openly allowing their students to use encyclopedias as their primary source of information, in my opinion, is unheard of and a non issue.

Both Wikipedia and Britannica have detailed editing/review formats for insuring quality assurance of proposed changes to their on line articles. Both encyclopedias compare favorably in their Literary style and both, on occasions, make serious errors. Britannica is consistently raited the highest as it has been with us since 1771. A 2005 investigation in Nature showed that the science articles from Wikipedia came close to the level of accuracy of Encyclopedia Britannica with both having a similar rate of serious errors.

The editing styles of both encyclopedias are not fool proof to prevent a "Wiki style, on the fly" or maybe a "Brita style, on the fly" definitive error to be made.
 

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Reply #79 - Mar 16th, 2012 at 6:07pm

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Flight Ace wrote on Mar 16th, 2012 at 5:31pm:
Lets face it, most Universities teach students how to think and form their own opinions based on information obtained from multiple sources. As for any College/University openly allowing their students to use encyclopedias as their primary source of information, in my opinion, is unheard of and a non issue.

I would like to believe that's true. This article is one of many that seem to prove otherwise. No shame in copy and paste for Internet-age students
 

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Reply #80 - Mar 16th, 2012 at 6:48pm

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Flight Ace wrote on Mar 16th, 2012 at 5:31pm:
Camel_Moe wrote on Mar 14th, 2012 at 1:42pm:
It is my understanding that the Britannica review process will remain very much the same, so I would imagine the objections to referencing the Britannica online will be about what they are now.  It's not like people will be able to make changes "wiki style", on the fly.
However, universities generally frown on using the encyclopedia has a primary reference already.


Lets face it, most Universities teach students how to think and form their own opinions based on information obtained from multiple sources. As for any College/University openly allowing their students to use encyclopedias as their primary source of information, in my opinion, is unheard of and a non issue.

Both Wikipedia and Britannica have detailed editing/review formats for insuring quality assurance of proposed changes to their on line articles. Both encyclopedias compare favorably in their Literary style and both, on occasions, make serious errors. Britannica is consistently raited the highest as it has been with us since 1771. A 2005 investigation in Nature showed that the science articles from Wikipedia came close to the level of accuracy of Encyclopedia Britannica with both having a similar rate of serious errors.

The editing styles of both encyclopedias are not fool proof to prevent a "Wiki style, on the fly" or maybe a "Brita style, on the fly" definitive error to be made.



Encyclopedias has a primary source is mainly a "non-issue" in the sense that students are told outright not to do it, and mostly there isn't a problem with students trying..

Lists like this one that directly tell you not to use ecyclopedias as a primary source are quite common:

http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/paperref.htm

That one even "bans" the Internet as a whole.

Another guide, from Berkeley, clearly states that "reference books" are secondary sources:

http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/instruct/guides/primarysources.html

So yes, it's a non issue in the sense that the rules have been established, and not enough people violate those rules to make it an issue.
Unfortunately, I cannot find the list my Grandfather used to hand out to his classes at MSU. I don't really need it, but it was funny the way he wrote it. From memory though, in his case, use of encyclopedias has a primary "would result in an automatic failing grade (on the paper, not the whole class), and a complete wash of the instructor's Chevy before being allowed back in class".
No, he didn't make students wash his Truck, or ban them from class, but the fail was for real, and the rest was to stress the point.... Grin
 

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Reply #81 - Mar 16th, 2012 at 8:19pm

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Hagar wrote on Mar 16th, 2012 at 6:07pm:
Flight Ace wrote on Mar 16th, 2012 at 5:31pm:
Lets face it, most Universities teach students how to think and form their own opinions based on information obtained from multiple sources. As for any College/University openly allowing their students to use encyclopedias as their primary source of information, in my opinion, is unheard of and a non issue.

I would like to believe that's true. This article is one of many that seem to prove otherwise. No shame in copy and paste for Internet-age students


Believe it,

This article you provided is about students who practice the art of plagiarism or copying information from the internet or from wherever without credit given to the authors. Has nothing to do with the paragraph you are responding to. In most cases when a student is caught doing this, some corrective and sometime punitive action including expulsion is taken.

 

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Reply #82 - Mar 17th, 2012 at 4:30pm

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All about words it seems Shocked

When you install the Microsoft Sims they go in Microsoft Games folders on the system...so in that respect they can be called games, but this start to become hair splitting as call it whichever and you can support what ever justification you choose.  On the other hand the versions up until now have be FS (Flight Simulator) something where Flight drops the Simulator part of the title and does not have a number following the earlier offerring.


MS Flight doesn't sit comfortably in either

Could it not just sit on it's own between the Current Flight Simulator Board and The Graphics Gallery???

That way it is still up where it will be noticed yet not being seen to be classed as the replacement for FS.X by being in the 'Current' Folder

It's a bit like the tomato debate as to weather it is a vegetable or a fruit...it is a fruit by growth but used as a vegetable, so what is it??...well it's a Tomato and everyone just accepts it without getting involved in trying to categorise it.

Same here, it is neither but can be either...but it is Microsoft Flight and can be whatever you want it to be, but doesn't have to be anything.

I think it really needs to be thought of as 'Something else", maybe from small acorns mighty oaks will grow, but that remains to be seen.
 
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Reply #83 - Mar 17th, 2012 at 8:35pm

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Flight Ace wrote on Mar 16th, 2012 at 8:19pm:
Hagar wrote on Mar 16th, 2012 at 6:07pm:
Flight Ace wrote on Mar 16th, 2012 at 5:31pm:
Lets face it, most Universities teach students how to think and form their own opinions based on information obtained from multiple sources. As for any College/University openly allowing their students to use encyclopedias as their primary source of information, in my opinion, is unheard of and a non issue.

I would like to believe that's true. This article is one of many that seem to prove otherwise. No shame in copy and paste for Internet-age students


Believe it,

This article you provided is about students who practice the art of plagiarism or copying information from the internet or from wherever without credit given to the authors. Has nothing to do with the paragraph you are responding to. In most cases when a student is caught doing this, some corrective and sometime punitive action including expulsion is taken.



I think this conversation is getting off topic, but I can't resist giving my 2 cents Smiley

In my degree (Bachelor of Law), secondary materials are rarely used formally, we would almost always reference primary materials like Cases and Legislation. With secondary material we only use peer reviewed materials.

However Wikipedia is used all the time to get a general overview of a particular subject area.

My conclusion - Use it in private but for goodness sake don't tell anyone that you do  Grin


Also plagiarising can be enough to be expelled from uni, or alternatively result in being refused admittance to the Bar in my case...
 
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Reply #84 - Apr 19th, 2012 at 12:35am

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Seeing that there has been no activity in the Flight Forum for a few days & that the last post that had anything to do with Flight was a fortnight ago at least I think it would be worth moving if you wanted to Pete.
 

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Intel Core i5-2310 CPU @ 2.90GHz, 6GB RAM, AMD Radeon HD 6450, Windows 7 Professional 64 bit, Logitech Extreme 3D Pro
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