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Navigational Question Regarding SID (Read 577 times)
Nov 3rd, 2011 at 1:49pm

Aiden327   Offline
Colonel
Hello!

Posts: 100
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Hey guys, got a few questions about the best course of action on how to fly the Kennedy One departure at KJFK airport.

So the first question is more of a workload question. Often at night I listen to live ATC and scince it is 2-3 in the morning the tower tends to handle Clearence aswell as some of the ground actions. Typically I will hear something along the lines of "Jet Blue 1010 cleared to orlando as filed, Kennedy One departure, maintain xxxx expect flight level xxx 10 minutes after depature etc."

A few moments later I hear "Jet Blue 1010 cleared for take off, Canarsie Climb cuation wake turbulence have a good nigh."

A quick background is the Kennedy One departure has 4 Climbs for different starting waypoints. Gateway, Breezy Point, Bridge Climb, and Canarsie for turbo jets. A flight to orlando typicaly begins a WAVEY wich would use the Canarsie Climb. So on my FMC I got to fix reference and plug in the Departure procedure.

Heading 225, then I draw a 4.5m DME arc around JFK VOR, then I draw in a 2m DME Arc around CRI. Next a draw in the 039 and 176 radials. Lastly I set the Nav display to show the VOR arrow and set the nav 1 radio to CRI and set the course to 176. Doing all this draws all the information on the nav display so I only need to actualy fly the outbound radial on CRI and I can do everything else by using my eyes. Its sort of boeings way of cheating Tongue

So this brings me to my first quesion, thats alot of work! If pilots don't know which climb they are assigned until take of clearence then do they manage do switch the displays in a matter of seconds? My Pegasus FMC in the 767 can only display to fixes at a time via the fix reference feature so its impossible to set up for all 4 climbs.

Me second question is how I should do this without the boeings fancy FMC and one nav radio and NO AUTOPILOT. I Fly an embraer 190 as of late and even though the FMC is even fancier it does not have a drawing feature. Only a Nav one and nav 2 radio and two course nob. So my thoughts were I tune into both VOR's and set the CRI to nav 1 and course to 176, then watch the DME on JFK VOR. Seems simple enough but I ran into a snag.. Only NAV 1 is displayed on the captains side the other on the first officer, and I can't figure out how to get both displayed at once.

So my last quetion is, is it even possile and safe to fly the SID with one nav rado and tune to CRI after reaching JFK 4.5 while flying the plane? Would the first officer be navigating while the captain fly's? It seems dangerous  to have to fly with on hand and tune radios and course nobs with the other.

Here is the SID plates.

http://tiles.skyvector.com/sky/files/tpp/1111/pdf/00610KENNEDY.PDF

http://tiles.skyvector.com/sky/files/tpp/1111/pdf/00610KENNEDY_C.PDF

Thank you in advance. I am not to shabby on navigation. I can navigate to waypoints and intersections easily its just I am sure their is an easier way to do all this. Especially during take of their is no room for error.
 
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Reply #1 - Nov 6th, 2011 at 12:15am

Splinter562   Offline
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Tampa, FL

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Question 1: The route information is contained in the IFR clearance the pilots receive while still at the gate. The flight plan is filed before the flight crews even get to the airplane. If there are no changes to the filed flight plan, ATC will use the term "Cleared as Filed". If things do change at the last minute, modern FMCs have the ability to switch procedures quickly.

Question 2: This particular departure procedure is known as a vector departure. The first note on the graphical depiction says "NOTE: RADAR REQUIRED". This is because navigation to WAVEY is provided via radar vectors from ATC. Once vectored to WAVEY, ATC will usually say "Resume own navigation" which means that the pilots will continue down the flight plan on their own, without radar vectors.

Question 3: If taking off on 22L/R, this departure procedure doesn't require any VORs at all until you get to your en-route fix. If you put together the text on the textual description it reads "TAKE-OFF RUNWAYS 22L/R: Climb heading 225, maintain 5,000 feet, Thence via vectors to assigned route/fix. Expect clearance to filed altitude/flight level ten minutes after departure."

The Canarise climb is for runways 31L/R only. It can work with one VOR and DME, but would be easier with two VORs. Modern airliners and business jets use inertial navigation systems that alleviate a lot of the workload of tuning radios and navigation. However, in high workload situations, the pilot and copilot will divide up responsibilities such as navigation and radio communication.
 
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Reply #2 - Nov 10th, 2011 at 6:56pm

Aiden327   Offline
Colonel
Hello!

Posts: 100
*****
 
Thank you for your replies.  Smiley

Quote:
Question 1: The route information is contained in the IFR clearance the pilots receive while still at the gate. The flight plan is filed before the flight crews even get to the airplane. If there are no changes to the filed flight plan, ATC will use the term "Cleared as Filed". If things do change at the last minute, modern FMCs have the ability to switch procedures quickly.


Ah so another words the pilots know what climb is assigned via the flight plan before they get the clearance and when I hear tower say the climb during take off clearance its more of a reminder?

Quote:
Question 2: This particular departure procedure is known as a vector departure. The first note on the graphical depiction says "NOTE: RADAR REQUIRED". This is because navigation to WAVEY is provided via radar vectors from ATC. Once vectored to WAVEY, ATC will usually say "Resume own navigation" which means that the pilots will continue down the flight plan on their own, without radar vectors.


My mistake, I meant for 31L and 31R >.<. I am familiar with vector departures and I do fly them, dunno why I thought the climbs were for 22L and 22R.  Shocked No wonder why my last flight felt a bit odd haha.

Quote:
Question 3: If taking off on 22L/R, this departure procedure doesn't require any VORs at all until you get to your en-route fix. If you put together the text on the textual description it reads "TAKE-OFF RUNWAYS 22L/R: Climb heading 225, maintain 5,000 feet, Thence via vectors to assigned route/fix. Expect clearance to filed altitude/flight level ten minutes after departure."


Same as I wrote above, I missed the 31L 31R Title and thought they were all for 22L and 22R.

Quote:
The Canarise climb is for runways 31L/R only. It can work with one VOR and DME, but would be easier with two VORs. Modern airliners and business jets use inertial navigation systems that alleviate a lot of the workload of tuning radios and navigation. However, in high workload situations, the pilot and copilot will divide up responsibilities such as navigation and radio communication.


I am indeed familiar with Inertial Systems and Navigation, makes life so much easier when you have a lot going on.

Do you have any recommendations on how I should program in the procedure? I finally figured out how to add in manual radials into the FMC so normally what I have been doing is this.

1. First I set the departure to 31R wich adds a way point .8 miles from the end of the runway which is used as a climb reference and has an altitude restriction at climb thrust call. (This is very nice to help visualize a safe climb out procedure and provides a nice reference to when to begin turn to the departure vector.)

2. Next I add a waypoint to CRI wich adds a DIRECT TO - CRI entry.

3. I enter CRI/176/2 and CRI/176/20 which draws a 176 radial out of CRI for 22 miles with a 2 mile mark. 22 Miles is more then enough for me to follow before the ATC vectors me to WAVEY.

4. I set up nav 1 radio to CRI and set the course to 176, set nave 2 to jfk and set the DME to Nav 2

That way I can manually fly the departure while watching the Nav display for turn cues and cross referencing the VOR display with the line drawn by the FMC for double precision. Can't be safe these days.

Now another question I have is lets say i don't have an FMC and I have only one nav radio. (hypothetically). Would it be wise to tune into the JFK vor first, then at 3 DME tune into CRI set the course and make the turn while flying? I see where a copilot is very handed  Cheesy.

- Aiden
 
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