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Aircraft Compatibility (Read 2088 times)
Dec 10th, 2010 at 9:10am

Carabosse   Offline
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Sorry if this topic has already been covered - but I'm just a newbie on this forum!  Wink

I have quite a large number of add-on aircraft... about 4 times as many as the default aircraft in FSX.  Some of these add-ons I have had to tweak, so they work properly in FSX.  I for one will be annoyed if I can't use these aircraft in MS Flight. In fact that could be a deal-breaker.

Has anyone given feedback to MS, saying that an important part of the 'wishlist' is full compatibility with FSX (and preferably FS2004)  aircraft?

 

Happy Flying!

CB
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Reply #1 - Dec 10th, 2010 at 11:55am

Keep It Simple   Offline
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I would think that native FSX aircraft could be compatable as the way FSX handels aircraft is not a problem and there is no reason that I know of not to make them compatable with Flight.
However I would not have any hope for anything older then FSX aircraft.

Let's not loss sight of the fact the the present code for MSFS is dated and very inefficient. Many have been saying for years that it needs to be rewitten  if MSFS is to surrvie and move forward.

Personally, I hope this time has come and if Flight is enought of a move forward, it will be worth it not to be backwards compatable with previous aircraft.
I'm shure MS is smart enough to make Flight not just a glorified FSX. "Flight" is to be the only MSFS for many years to come so it better be a FS for the 21st century. Smiley  
 
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Reply #2 - Dec 10th, 2010 at 12:12pm

Carabosse   Offline
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Personally I would love more realistic scenery etc - maybe some sort of tie in with Bing maps, or whatever.

But I suspect we will get something which is more akin to "Flight Simulator Facebook", and dumbed down for the gaming community with no real advances so far as simulation is concerned .  Perhaps this is why Microsoft disbanded the Aces team?
 

Happy Flying!

CB
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Reply #3 - Dec 10th, 2010 at 1:58pm

Keep It Simple   Offline
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Quite the contrary acording to the lastest info from MS.
They said they dropped the word "simulator" purely for marketing reasons and Flight will definately be a simulator.
However, it will also include some features that will appeal to the more casual simmer and/or gamer without dumbing down the hard core flight simming experience.
Too many peple get turned off by the word "simulator"  and MS hopes to capture and win over that crowd and possibly make real  flight simmers out of them. Smiley
Keep in mind that the broader selling base MSFS has, the more secure the future of MSFS will be which can only be a good thing for us.   

ACES was disbanded due to the world economy and the fact that Vista was basically a flop.
Some former members of ACES are now working on flight and are continuing to work on the code that was mothballed when ACES was disbanded.

It's way too early and not nearly enough info is available to become  pessimistic at this point.
However, what info is currently available is encouraging  Smiley
 
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Reply #4 - Dec 11th, 2010 at 2:37pm

Travis   Offline
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I can tell you from the viewpoint of an aircraft designer for the past 8 years, that if MS doesn't update the coding for Flight and do away with the current format FS uses, I will NEVER purchase.  The legacy codes that are forced upon the designers by making everything backwards compatible have made it impossible to do some things with FS that should have been figured out with the release of FSX.  Things like ducted fans, vectored thrust and VTOL aircraft.  Not to mention not being able to utilize any thrust system other than turbines, jets and props.  And that is just the airfiles.  That doesn't cover the insanity that is inherent when trying to write coding for gauges or animations using XML.

Yes, this means that the older aircraft won't be able to be used, but that's an acceptable issue when you think about how much will be created when it does get released.  Give it one month from the release date, and there will be several dozen fresh aircraft released by the current FS teams.
 

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Reply #5 - Dec 11th, 2010 at 3:06pm

BrandonF   Offline
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The FSX coding is not as dated as one may think. I remember reading a post on Avsim a while back stating that one of the FSX developers said that FSX was in fact a modernization of the old code. The way I feel is that the modernization was not done right, so I suspect Flight will perfect the modernization of the old code.

I will go and try to find the post stating this info...

Cool

EDIT: Ah, here it is:

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/293576-ms-flight-improvement-wish-list/page__view__...

From greggerm on Avsim:
Quote:
Just because FS2004 and FSX have semblances of backwards compatibility and use the .BGL scenery formats doesn't mean that their core coding is ten years old. From my reading back in the FSX release days (*I wish I could find it!!) I recall Phil Taylor indicating that FSX was in fact a major modernization of the core engines, and they weren't operating on ancient code like many have postulated here.
 
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Reply #6 - Dec 11th, 2010 at 7:03pm

Keep It Simple   Offline
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A moderization off the old code?
To me that just means that an anttempt was made to make the old code a bit more efficient.

However, it's still the old code and which is inherently ineficent and no amount of tinkering will make it the way it really shoud be. A basic rewrite is  necessary IMO.
 
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Reply #7 - Dec 12th, 2010 at 2:29pm

alrot   Offline
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I'm not so experienced in aircraft designing , but I hope for the sake of MSFS community that at least they allow to export us again in gmax and 3d studio max in the new format our and my Humble models other wise this would be the sudden death of MSFS  ,Don't believe me ? have you seen how many simulator are? but one could be the replace of all MSFS , have you taken a trip all over INTERNET and see how PLANE X its growing?

I wish these M$ people see this ,
Of course this are words to the air, it will be my wishes only ,its M$ we're talking about  
« Last Edit: Dec 12th, 2010 at 3:48pm by alrot »  

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Reply #8 - Dec 13th, 2010 at 3:57am

Travis   Offline
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Alrot: the folks over at Microsoft read these types of forums specifically to get ideas on what to include with the next release of the sim.  Be thankful that they at least tried with FSX (a little!).

That being said, it would seem that Gmax is out the window.  It is fair too outdated to serve as the basic programming software for the newest sim.  Max would seem to be the obvious choice, but apparently Maya is the leader in the field right now, because of movie magic.  However, Max remains the standard for game industry, so it may be that we will still have a way in.  I do think that if MS wants to have a real group of 3rd party developers, they're going to have to redo something along the lines of Gmax, since there aren't many folks out there willing to dish out the 3500+ bucks to purchase either Max or Maya to design aircraft unless they're getting paid.
 

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Reply #9 - Dec 13th, 2010 at 1:59pm

alrot   Offline
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Travis wrote on Dec 13th, 2010 at 3:57am:
That being said, it would seem that Gmax is out the window.  It is fair too outdated to serve as the basic programming software for the newest sim


I really can't see the diference from gmax to 3d studio max 7 (Working at least to make airplanes) I have both and lately I rather use gmax which doesn't load so many stuff just a basic thing to make things for FS9/FSX game
Any real  developer can't see differences between 3d max and gmax ,ah only that Gmax export directly into MDL

Of course If I would still in my old job animating 3d logos in avi format ,I would require 3d max ,but that TV station not longer exist.

, there is a pdf of how to convert 3d max files into gmax and the first model that was converted was the SDK model DC-3  which is available every where as a learning tool.

  Maya its being on the market the same time as 3d max couple years left or more ,at the end Maya is also Old .

  Any good developer can do exacly the same thing with maya that with 3d studio max 3 I mean Gmax ,so at least to me Gmax its far from being absolette for doing and shaping cylinders, box etc.

Travis wrote on Dec 13th, 2010 at 3:57am:
[b]Alrot: the folks over at Microsoft read these types of forums specifically to get ideas on what to include with the next release of the sim.  Be thankful that they at least tried with FSX (a little!).


ITS THEIR JOB ,ITS OUR MONEY ,ITS WHAT THEY SHOULD DO , so I won't thanks them ,after all they never listen any one , BTW I paid for service pack 2 Buying Acceleration , I Paid for something they did wrong and fix it in a sp2 ,that's so Ilegal!!!
then every one wait some month to their SP2 get release it ,as it would be a favor ,WE PAID FOR THAT! or we will paid ..
I wonder if really ACE team was fire because of budgets or because they did a huge mistake 3 times FSX-FSX-SP1 and selling 3 month after release the SP2 ,.This also includes the FSX-SDK which didn't work either in the version we all bough , But we bought it AGAIN in acceleration..how legal is that? why changing the name to "flight"  Roll Eyes


Quote:
since there aren't many folks out there willing to dish out the 3500+ bucks to purchase either Max or Maya to design aircraft unless they're getting paid


[size=14]Microsoft Flight Simulator has reach to become the biggest and successful game of all times in the whole world  carrying and gathering entire communities in history for only ONE reason my friend ,FREEWARE DEVELOPERS , if those airplanes, sceneries ,TOOL for design (afcad ,flight simulator scenery creator) among many hundreds more made it for free and all the new stuff that INDEPENDENT people did to make FS better.

Microsoft Flight Simulator WOULD BE NOTHING with out them..
MSFS would be just another  Counter strike or Need for speed

Its is now that PAYWARES has grown up because of the FSX troubles, you are right in one thing you been here in this from a very long ago Ender ,when the FUN of FS2000 /FS2002/FS2004 was to Find the best freeware that used to be 20 per day I remember Looking for them  in here that's why I meet simviation  and join the forum in 2003 and  in other  sites ..
so FSX came up to screw the FUN because It becomes a game of WHO HAS THE MOST POWERFULL PC ,THE MOST EXPENSIVE CAPABLE TO RUN FSX HAVING THE BEST PERFORMANCE, and even some Gurus where hire to say If FSX doesn't work well  is your PC ..Mmm strange as soon ACES was fire that Guru vanished too..weird

This use to be a game of  who can flight and learn and tell their experiences in fs9, 8, 7, 6  ,the FSX-SDK was and still is unknown by many ,that still have to export using FS9-sdk
If FSX came to screw the party ,"Flight Will Kill it for ever"

I don't thanks them ,I'll tell them to go back AND SEE WHY MSFS IS WHAT IT IS EVEN TODAY ,BUT NOT IN FSX ,BACK IN FS9 TIMES

If they read this , yes please improve and above all FIX  anything you want , but don't come up with another 3d tool design , that will kill the real nature of MSFS culture

  there is a huge entire comunity that ahs leanr how to work in gmax and 3d max tool ,YOU M$ came and change that and that's it ,the end of all this ..

 
 

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Reply #10 - Dec 13th, 2010 at 2:34pm

alrot   Offline
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I can't avoid this

there is a lack off FSX-SDK users Its rare to find & download a genuine FSX model  , from every 100 developers ,90 used the old FS9-SDK , because they don't know how to use FSX-SDK ,most of all are using the same old models made in makemdl.xml  format and  just improving them  ..and with all do respect your latest model was made in FS9-SDK ,right?

Imagine if they release a new and even stranger SDK using Maya ,c'mon Please!

 

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Reply #11 - Dec 13th, 2010 at 7:38pm

Travis   Offline
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Quote:
and with all do respect your latest model was made in FS9-SDK


But of course it was: I don't own FSX, since my setup can't run it.  I also didn't want to learn the FSX SDK because of all of the hassle's with the sim you mentioned above.

I'm not pretending to think that I know better.  I just believe that, just as the legacy coding is outdated, so is Gmax.  It was intended to service FS8 and 9, but doesn't have powerful enough tools to work the true magic of FSX without major tweaking and XML coding.  These issues could be taken care of by a newer, updated version of something similar to Gmax, perhaps based off of the current Maya version.

I use Max 9, and I can definitely tell the difference between Gmax and Max.
 

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Reply #12 - Dec 13th, 2010 at 10:22pm

BrandonF   Offline
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They'd better not use Maya or 3Ds and leave gmax behind, as freeware developers would be history. I have been using the FSX SDK for several months now, and I don't have many complaints at all about it. It's definitely easier to export MDLs from Gmax now. The FS9 makemdl would cancel the export if one tiny thing was wrong that wouldn't affect anything. (You couldn't do a little test export sometimes for one error that you don't want to deal with at the time)

As long as they include some sort of freeware modeling program similar to gmax, then we will be fine.

Cool
 
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Reply #13 - Dec 15th, 2010 at 9:31am

usapatriot   Offline
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Personally, I would prefer for them not to offer ANY backwards compatibility with older add-ons. I hope they use a better, more advanced aircraft modeling system and supporting older add-ons would only add bloat and the possibility of MORE bugs in the new game.
 

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Reply #14 - Dec 15th, 2010 at 2:33pm

Fr. Bill   Offline
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Continued use of GMax isn't something over which Microsoft (or anyone else for that matter) has control!

The decision whether to license anyone to use the Autodesk GMax SDK to code an export module is totally up to Autodesk!

MS/ACES practically had to get on their knees and BEG Autodesk to grant them a limited license to use the GMax SDK so they could provide an export module for FSX.

Autodesk has made it crystal clear that this was a "one off" instance, and that they were highly disinclined to do it again.

So, if "Flight's SDK" (assuming there is one) doesn't offer any support for GMax, it's most certainly NOT the fault of Microsoft!
 

Bill
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