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Help needed with rudder and turn coordination parameters (Read 1466 times)
Reply #15 - May 14th, 2010 at 11:26am

snippyfsxer   Offline
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I don't suppose any of you guys own the ESDG Twin Comanche...If you did, it would be easier to compare notes.  It is perhaps my favorite airplane, but I just have trouble believing that the real thing requires such constant control adjustment even in a shallow turn.  I own a bunch of planes and normally I have no trouble keeping the ball centered at all, without having to pay particular attention to the guage  (do it visually, like you said, in the absence of butt acceleration).  If the airplane really is that unstable in the turn as the designers released, then I would be happy to abandon all of my tweaks and gladly enjoy the challenge of flying a difficult plane.

Maybe its time to just buy the Seneca instead.
 
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Reply #16 - May 14th, 2010 at 2:16pm

olderndirt   Offline
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snippyfsxer wrote on May 14th, 2010 at 11:26am:
I don't suppose any of you guys own the ESDG Twin Comanche...If you did, it would be easier to compare notes.  It is perhaps my favorite airplane, but I just have trouble believing that the real thing requires such constant control adjustment even in a shallow turn.  I own a bunch of planes and normally I have no trouble keeping the ball centered at all, without having to pay particular attention to the guage  (do it visually, like you said, in the absence of butt acceleration).  If the airplane really is that unstable in the turn as the designers released, then I would be happy to abandon all of my tweaks and gladly enjoy the challenge of flying a difficult plane.

Maybe its time to just buy the Seneca instead.
Sure doesn't sound right.  Once a thirty degree bank is set up, add a little nose trim, rest you feet on the pedals and enjoy your sandwich - should stay right there 'til you run out of gas  Smiley.
 

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THIS IS NOT A PANAM CLIPPER

                                                            
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Reply #17 - May 14th, 2010 at 5:46pm

Travis   Offline
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Cannot find REALITY.SYS.
Universe halted.
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Have you completely ruled out your setup being the difference?  If not, try turning on autorudder for a few minutes and make some shallow and steep turns.  If the aircraft flies normally, it's entirely possible that something is amiss in your system.
 

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Reply #18 - May 17th, 2010 at 11:04pm

snippyfsxer   Offline
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This thread is done, but I just came across something interesting in the real POH, for those that cared.

"Coordinated action of the rudder and ailerons is accomplished by cables that are interconnected by a cable-spring system."  (olderndirt, upstream in this thread, had mentioned bungee cords in the Piper TriPacer, I'm not sure that this is exactly the same thing).  This is not the same as turning on the Auto-coordination cheat in FSX, this is a flight modelling issue (Travis)

In the real plane, doesn't this also imply that, instead of returning the ailerons to neutral, or even applying opposite pressure once the turn is established, that the pilot must maintain aileron pressure in the direction of the turn in order to maintain the spring-provided rudder pressure as well (A strong dihedral effect)?  Either that, or the real plane has very little adverse yaw tendency to begin with.  I'm more inclined to believe the latter than the former.  Does my logic sound correct on that??

From the Piper Cherokee 180F manual, it says "The ailerons are provided with a differential action which tends to reduce adverse yaw in turning maneuvers, and which also reduces the amound of coordination required in normal turns"  I'm not sure what mechanism that specifically refers to, and of course I'm dealing with a Twin Comanche, but why wouldn't the PA-30 have something like this as well. 

At the expense of turning this into a "payware flight model review", I should also add that the Aerosoft Cheyenne appears to be completely auto-coordinated to the point that no pilot rudder input is required at all. It almost feels like I'm flying the F-16 from a Falcon game.  A bit unnatural, actually.  I'm not sure if the FDE is accurate on that one or not, but if auto-coordination is provided by Piper, I'm sure it would be in the Cheyenne.

Bottom line, I think that none of these Pipers should require an appreciable amount of pilot rudder input at all.  This mimics alot of the higher fidelity flight models I'm used to flying in the sim, such as the Beech Duke, the Dakota, The Cherokee, and others. Only actual pilots can tell me if thats true in RL.

Even while assuming that the "AOPA Win-a-Twin" aircraft that ESDG used to model the sim-aircraft had none of these systems, I still contend their turning behavior is wrong.  However, if these systems are in place on that aircraft, then, the yaw-roll model, as delivered, must be totally out of whack.

Thats Okay though: the personal user fixes that I applied, brought the behavior within the same margins that I've experienced on all the other planes in its class.  Now that thats fixed, I will get back to flying the RA Beechcraft Duke when I want to satisfy my twin-engined piston cravings. Smiley
Sorry for the long post.  This has been quite a learning experience!
« Last Edit: May 18th, 2010 at 12:57am by snippyfsxer »  
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Reply #19 - May 18th, 2010 at 6:49am

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
BE AN NDB

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This is the best side of simming..  having fun AND learning  Smiley

You're simming with a respect for reality, realism. .. not just charging, bull-like through the sim china shop, en-route to instant ailrine captain  Cheesy

I've got several hours in an old Seneca 1, and it had the spring-linked rudder. It was weird.. you could even see it on the ground. Moving the yoke, moved the pedals too. I never liked it, but the springs were easily over-ridden, for slipping and such.

In theory, a perfectly loaded, low-wing airplane (dihedral a given), would only need rudder application as it rolled into, and out of, a turn (why Dutch Rolls are good practice)... a little bit of elevator should then hold a nice, coordinated turn. However.. airplanes are rarely loaded perfectly, and there are many compromises built into them.

As an interesting side-note.. a single engine airplane (especially a high-wing), will require a bit of OPPOSITE rudder, to maintain a coordinated, climbing left turn  Shocked

I don't even think about rudder-use.. I just obey the signals from my butt and eyes... you can tell if the airplane is happily turning, or fighting it   Cool
 
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