Simviation Forum - Fairey Aces

May 26^th, 2004 at 10:57pm

denishc Offline
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Recently I've become interested in aircraft built by the Fairey Aircraft Company and I was wondering were there any pilots that flew either the Fulmar or Firefly who managed to down five or more enemy aircraft during World War Two?

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Reply #1 - May 26^th, 2004 at 11:09pm

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The names don't ring a bell, can you post some pictures to refresh my memory?

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Reply #2 - May 27^th, 2004 at 12:08am

denishc Offline
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I've got not photos but here's a link that has pics and info on both aircraft:

http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Aircraft/Fulmar.htm

http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Aircraft/Firefly.htm

http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/aircraft/Index.html

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Reply #3 - May 27^th, 2004 at 3:38am

Hagar Offline
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I doubt it unless this was against inferior types. The Fairey aircraft were not noted for their looks or performance. The company seems to have lost its way after the delightful little Flycatcher (1922). http://www.britishaircraft.co.uk/aircraftpage.php?ID=361
This was possibly a result of doing its best to satisfy unrealistic specifications* issued by the Admiralty which seemed to have an unexplained loyalty to the company. (I often suspected that Fairey Aviation might be the only company prepared to attempt to meet these specifications.)

At the time the Fulmar & Firefly were designed the RN insisted on an extra crew member being carried on carrier-borne fighter aircraft. The extra weight alone would obviously affect performance compared with a single-seater fighter of the same power. The Fairey Battle suffered in a similar fashion by meeting an Air Ministry specification for a single-engined day bomber. It was obsolete before it entered service in 1937 & many brave crews died in this deathtrap in the early months of WWII.

*PS. This is not unusual even today. Nobody in power seems to learn anything from history & nothing of any use was ever designed by a committee. The most successful British aircraft during WWII (including the Hurricane & Spitfire) were produced as private ventures by the manufacturers at considerable financial risk.

« Last Edit: May 27^th, 2004 at 5:50am by Hagar »

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Reply #4 - May 27^th, 2004 at 5:58am

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Quote:

At the time the Fulmar & Firefly were designed the RN insisted on an extra crew member being carried on carrier-borne fighter aircraft. The extra weight alone would obviously affect performance compared with a single-seater fighter of the same power
.

Regarding preformance, although the Firefly was powered by either a 1750hp Griffon IIB or a 1990hp Griffon XII (F Mk I), it was still some 20mph slower than the best Seafire of the day (Mk LIIIc) powered by a 1470hp Merlin 55. The last Fireflys (Mk V) powered by a much more capable Griffon 74 rated at 2190hp turning a four bladed prop, coming after the end of WW2, were still only able to match the performance of the far less powerful Seafire IIIc.

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Reply #5 - May 27^th, 2004 at 7:39am

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http://my.tele2.ee/airacesww2/airaces/aces/ukaces/ukacese.htm

Spotted this reference which seems to indicate an FAA pilot "S Orr" with 12 victories - aircraft indicated as the Fulmar. Whether all victories were in the Fulmar or in other aircraft (FAA pilots seconded to the RAF during the Battle of Britain scored some victories, as well), would be a matter of further research.

Maybe one of our readers could post more information?

(Okay, that's it. I'm swearing off UK aviation magazines for the rest of the month!)

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Reply #6 - May 27^th, 2004 at 8:55am

Hagar Offline
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From the FAA Archive. http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/

Quote:

SG Orr RNVR
Born london 1916
Rank: Lt (1941), Lt Cdr (A) (1943)
Honours and Awards: DSC (4.1941) & 2 Bars (6.1941, tirpitz 4.1944), AFC (1946-1948 test pilot)
Died
Other information
- air ace with 6 confirmed destroyed enemy aircraft, 6-8 shared destroyed, 1 shared probable 2 shared destroyed on water.
- one of the first RNVR Sub Lts to see action.
- Orkneys for ops against southern Norway, 5.1940 (806 sqdn)
- flew over Dunkirk during evacuation, 5.1940 (806 sqdn)
- onboard HMS Illustrious in the Mediterranean till 1.41, 13 enemy aircraft shot down over at this time (806 sqdn).
- operations over Syria 7.1941
- leading fighter cover in Operation Tungsten, attack against the German battleship Tirpitz in Norway, 3.4.1944, received DSC
- 3 He115 shot destroyed on operations in Rorvik, Norway, 14.5.1944 (804 sqdn)
- AFRAeS
- Seniority 6.1954 (Cdr)
Commands:

896 Sept 1942 March 1943
804 Aug 1943 June 1944

Quote:

806 Squadron

Aircraft

Skua II Feb 1940-July 1940
Roc I Feb 1940-July 1940
Fulmar I June 1940-May 1941
Sea Gladiator Oct 1940-May 1941
Hurricane I May 1941- 1942
Fulmar II Nov 1941-Jan 1943
Martlet I May 1942-June 1942
Martlet II Aug 1942-Dec 1942
SeafireL.III Aug 1945 -end of WW2

Quote:

804 Squadron

Aircraft

Sea Gladiator Nov 1939-Jan 1941
Buffalo I July 1940-1942
Whitney Straight Dec 1940-March 1941
Martlet I Sept 1940-March 1941
Fulmar I, II Feb 1941-May 1942
Sea Hurricane Ia Feb 1941-Sept 1941
Sea Hurricane Ib Feb 1941-Sept 1941
Sea Hurricane IIc Oct 1942-June 1943
Hellcat I Aug 1943-June 1944
Hellcat II Sept 1944-end of WW2

Here's a list of FAA aces 1939 - 1945. http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/RollofHonour/Aces/FAA_aces_index.html

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Reply #7 - May 27^th, 2004 at 1:17pm

Scottler Offline
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Is it me or do those pictures make them resemble a Spitfire and a Hawker Tempest, repsectively?

Very similar characteristics.

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Reply #8 - May 27^th, 2004 at 3:22pm

Hagar Offline
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The only resemblance I can see between the Fulmar & the Spitfire is the engine cowling & prop.*

Some variants of the Firefly had a chin radiator scoop, smaller & more box-like than the one on the Napier powered Tempests.

The later Firefly AS 5 reminds me of the Sea Fury in some respects. The wing is a very similar shape. Not sure if this was more than coincidental. I always thought this version was the most attractive of the Fairey monoplane fighters. This one was sadly destroyed in a fatal accident at Duxford last year.

*Not surprising as it was fitted with the Merlin engine. It possibly used some Spitfire parts to save time & development costs.

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Reply #9 - May 27^th, 2004 at 4:22pm

Felix/FFDS Offline
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I did read one description of the Firefly which stated that the navigator was armed with "rolls of Admiralty brown which, when thrown caused more than one e/a to veer sharply away from the terrifying new weapon of the dastardly British"!

(more or less - quote enhanced for effect)

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Reply #10 - May 27^th, 2004 at 5:30pm

Hagar Offline
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Us Brits are nothing if not resourceful. Grin

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Reply #11 - May 28^th, 2004 at 12:56am

denishc Offline
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I'm afraid to ask this question (cuz I think I know what the answer is!), but being that I'm a dumb Yank, what are "rolls of Admiralty brown"?

P.S.: Thanks for all the feedback. It seems that there is atleast one Fulmar ace, Lt. Orr. I remember reading that Fulmars were fairly active in the defence of Malta against the Italians. Perhaps this is where Lt. Orr scored his victories?

P.S.S.: Thanks Hagar for the photos, they give good contrast between the two aircraft.

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Reply #12 - May 28^th, 2004 at 1:57am

Hagar Offline
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Quote:

I'm afraid to ask this question (cuz I think I know what the answer is!), but being that I'm a dumb Yank, what are "rolls of Admiralty brown"?

To be honest I've not heard this expression before. I originally thought it might be paint but as it comes on a roll small enough to be thrown from an aircraft I can only assume it's toilet paper. A fearful weapon in the right hands. Shocked

Quote:

Thanks for all the feedback. It seems that there is atleast one Fulmar ace, Lt. Orr. I remember reading that Fulmars were fairly active in the defence of Malta against the Italians. Perhaps this is where Lt. Orr scored his victories?

If you compare the date of "Stan" Orr's victories with the list of aircraft used by the squadrons he was serving with at least some were on aircraft other than the Fulmar.
- 3 He115 shot destroyed on operations in Rorvik, Norway, 14.5.1944 (804 sqdn)

Hellcat I Aug 1943-June 1944

These FAA pilots seem to have flown a variety of different types in a comparatively short time. Perhaps this is what made them good test pilots.

PS. I think this is a typo. 896 should read 806 Squadron.
Quote:

Commands:

896 Sept 1942 March 1943
804 Aug 1943 June 1944

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Reply #13 - May 28^th, 2004 at 3:11am

Hagar Offline
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I found this obituary. It seems that "Stan" Orr died only last year. Another veteran gone.
Quote:

The Daily Telegraph, 19 August 03, by Telegraph Staff

Commander Stan Orr, DSC : 1916 - 2003

'Commander Stan Orr, who has died aged 86, was one of the Fleet Air Arm's top-scoring aces of the Second World War, during which he was awarded a DSC and two Bars. In December 1940 aircraft flying from Illustrious and Eagle made the Eastern Mediterranean their own, bombing the German army in North Africa and attacking German and Italian airfields. Orr was awarded his first DSC for gallant service against enemy aircraft.'

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Reply #14 - May 28^th, 2004 at 3:26am

denishc Offline
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Quote:

I found this obituary. It seems that "Stan" Orr died only last year. Another veteran gone.

Yes, another sad loss.

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