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A 'curley one' for the Ages (Read 3271 times)
Jan 17th, 2004 at 1:30am

Professor Brensec   Offline
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Here's one that has caused more arguments and trouble than History is really worth, but to History 'pedantics' like myself, everything has to be 'just so!...........'  Tongue Tongue

When was the end of the 20th century?  ???

Answer, of course, on the 31st December, 2000.

Why then did everyone make such a fuss on the same day, one year before it came????

I don't know. Maybe the beginning of 2000 (Jan 1) is a better sounding number for the beginning of something new. But still very, very wrong!!  Grin Grin Wink

(Now we sit back and let the 'fur balls' fly...........lol)  8) Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: Jan 17th, 2004 at 2:46pm by Professor Brensec »  

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Reply #1 - Jan 17th, 2004 at 3:08am

Hagar   Offline
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Technically I suppose you're correct. As you know, I'm very pedantic myself but this particular debate never really bothered me one way or the other. I didn't hear too many people complaining. Greater minds than mine decided on the date it was celebrated & this was agreed by governments all over the world. That in itself is an amazing achievement & an almost unique event. Wink

Now you mention it, I've always thought of past centuries starting from the 00 date. Roll Eyes

PS. Queen Victoria died on 22nd January 1901 & therefore made it into the 20th century. The question is - by how long? Would this still be the case had she died a month earlier - in December 1900? Undecided
« Last Edit: Jan 17th, 2004 at 5:02am by Hagar »  

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Reply #2 - Jan 17th, 2004 at 7:39am

Redwing   Offline
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Quote:
When was the end of the 20th century?   

Answer, of course, on the 31st December, 2001.


Is this a typo(?).....don't you mean it ended December 31st, 2000 ? ???
 
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Reply #3 - Jan 17th, 2004 at 7:50am

Hagar   Offline
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Quote:
Is this a typo(?).....don't you mean it ended December 31st, 2000 ? ???

I think you're correct but I do understand what Brensec is getting at. I think. Roll Eyes
 

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Reply #4 - Jan 17th, 2004 at 2:45pm

Professor Brensec   Offline
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Quote:
Is this a typo(?).....don't you mean it ended December 31st, 2000 ? ???


You'e quite right mate, I've fixed it. In my hast I was thinking of the year this cemtury began, sorry.  Grin Wink an Thanks.
 

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Reply #5 - Jan 17th, 2004 at 2:51pm

Professor Brensec   Offline
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I know there still alot of people who just can't get their head around it. I usually ask them this:

"When someone pays you $100-00, do you count the last dollar while it's still in their pocket, or do you wait till it's in your hand!!"  Grin Cheesy Wink

Sometimes, they get the idea.

Others just don't seem to cotton onto the fact that there was no 'year dot'. i.e. "2 BC, 1 BC, 1 AD, 2 AD"
??? ??? Where's the zero!!  Cheesy Wink
 

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Reply #6 - Jan 17th, 2004 at 4:53pm

Hagar   Offline
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Well Brensec, as you've already noticed it's easy to get confused when you start thinking about it. You're not the only one as I didn't spot your mistake until Redwing pointed it out. Logically at least, I think it would be much easier for everyone to start each new century with 00 or zero.

Another way to look at it is this. I was born in 1943. Consequently I was 1 year old in 1944. That doesn't mean I didn't exist until 1944. I was 60 years old in 2003. Make what you will of that. Confused yet? I know I am. LOL Tongue Smiley
 

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Reply #7 - Jan 17th, 2004 at 8:27pm

Redwing   Offline
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Quote:
You'e quite right mate, I've fixed it. In my hast I was thinking of the year this cemtury began, sorry.  Grin Wink an Thanks.


Figured that's what you meant....even professors can make mistakes! Wink To be honest, I wasn't entirely certain though; thought you may have been on to some little-known history. I was almost prepared for an erudite explanation of calendar time as measured by the ancient "Holy Roman Order of Byzantine monks", or....uh, never mind. Roll Eyes Grin
Anyway, you're right about all the big hoopla for the new millenium---it took place a year early!



 
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Reply #8 - Jan 17th, 2004 at 9:30pm

Felix/FFDS   Offline
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Quote:
Anyway, you're right about all the big hoopla for the new millenium---it took place a year early!






Of course, that was only the "Common Era" millenium, and according to a generally accepted convention.  Per the Julian calendar, it would have occured a bit earlier.

Then again, what's the fuss about the "21st century"?  Isn't the Jewish calendar into its 60th century?
 

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Reply #9 - Jan 18th, 2004 at 5:43am

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There being no year 0 the 21st century started on January 1, 2001.  At least I have some quasi-scientific support for this position http://www.timeanddate.com/counters/mil2000.html

This date, of course, springs from an arbitrary calculation of Christ's birth and attempts to calculate the date from that point on.

The Hebrew calendar would appear to be more accurate since it calculates the date from the creation of the world.  This is a lunar calendar, however, and  regardless of any divine inspiration becomes quickly outdated over a period of a mere few hundred years.

The Julian calendar is more accurate, amounting to an error of only 10 days over 1700 years from the arbitrary date of Christ's birth.

The modern Gregorian calendar corrects the errors of the Julian calendar and, after subtracting 10 days somewhere around 1700 http://es.rice.edu/ES/humsoc/Galileo/Things/gregorian_calendar.html ;  
brings us to our current dating system.

So what was the hoopla on 12/31/99?  It was fun.  Would you rather see your automobiile turn over 999,999,999 or 000,000,001?
 
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Reply #10 - Jan 18th, 2004 at 9:17am

Professor Brensec   Offline
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That's the whole point (the car bit, I mean), which Hagar also referred to with his age.

The car started it's life at 000000 miles, and Hagar started his life at 0 years, 0 months and 0 Days etc.
When Hagar turned 1, he had been alive for 1 full year.  Grin Wink

Unfortunately, someone, and I have no idea who, decided to call the first 12 months immediately after the YOOL, as the year 1 AD (probably some Roman idiot!!  Cheesy Wink Tongue  When it was really year 'dot', nix, nada, bupcus etc .

So consequently we now celebrate the finish of our decades and centuries at the end of the 9th and 99th year instead of the end of the 10th or 100th.
It really should be remedied!!..............lol  Grin Cheesy Wink

By the way Webb, I'm not entirely sure what the significance of the Jewish calender is, but I seriously doubt it's the 'creation of the world'. The world has been around a little longer than 6000 years or so.......  Grin Cheesy Wink
I have quite a good Tora. One of about three in the whole of Australia

I think it counts from Noah (that would be around the right time) or perhaps some other significant 'start over point' for humanity.  Grin Wink

I have a really good Tora. One of onlt about 6 in the whole of Australia...............lol  Grin Wink ( A joke, we don't have a very large population of Jews, in fact most Australians have never met one!).
I'll have to check and see if there's anything in there about the beginning of "recorded" time.
Either that, or pop along to one of the three or four Synagogues in the whole of Sydney, and ask the Rabbi.  Wink
 

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Reply #11 - Jan 18th, 2004 at 10:56am

Hagar   Offline
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I really can't see the point of worrying about all this now. The new century is well under way & the event was duly celebrated all over the world. Apparently all the world leaders interested in celebrating this event agreed to do so on the same day. I watched the firework displays from various different countries on TV & can confirm this. 8) I'm almost certain I won't be here to worry about the next one. Roll Eyes Grin

PS. I still can't see why the year dot cannot be represented by 0 or zero. ??? In this case there is no valid argument anyway. Roll Eyes
 

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Reply #12 - Jan 18th, 2004 at 2:31pm

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As a goy living in South Florida I've run into the Hebrew calendar a few times.  Jewish New Year is a legal holiday here.

The date is in years from the creation of the world.  The new year, however, does not begin on the first day of the first month but from some date near the Egyptian liberation.  If that's not confusing enough it's a lunar calendar which is about the most inaccurate type of calendar that can be devised.

http://www.jewfaq.org/calendar.htm
 
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Reply #13 - Jan 18th, 2004 at 4:10pm

Hagar   Offline
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You guys have lost me. ??? I thought the new year we were discussing is the one recognised by most countries in the the western world. This was originally a Christian concept & based on a birth date which is by no means accurate. We are now in 2004 AD (anno domini) or the Year of Our Lord. I don't see what the Jewish New Year has to do with it. The Chinese New Year is different again & based on astronomical observations of the movement of the Sun, Moon and stars. This is considered the most accurate.
Quote:
When is the Chinese New Year's Day in Year 2004?
January 22, 2004. This is the first day in the Year of the Monkey.
It is Year 4701 by Chinese calendar.

I'm no mathemetician or theologian but I don't need to be. Birthdays & anniversaries are calculated from 0 or zero so why should centuries based on an obscure date be any different? It must have been agreed at some point that the year starts on January 1st rather than December 25th & ends on December 31st. I assume this was done mainly for convenience. If the centuries are calculated from Jan 1st 00 -  the 1st Century AD starts on Jan 1st 00 when Jesus Christ was born. This was the first year of his life. His first birthday, 1st January 01, would be the start of his 2nd year on Earth - just like any other baby. That's how I see it anyway.
« Last Edit: Jan 18th, 2004 at 6:45pm by Hagar »  

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Reply #14 - Jan 18th, 2004 at 8:32pm

WebbPA   Ex Member
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Long story short.  We all know the real millenium started on 01/01/01.   But that's no fun because there is no threat of a global computer meltdown on that date.  The theortical meltdown would occur on  01/01/00.  It's just a more fun date and most people don't (didn't) know the difference.
 
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Reply #15 - Jan 18th, 2004 at 9:59pm

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Spoilsport!

Quote:
Long story short.  We all know the real millenium started on 01/01/01.   But that's no fun because there is no threat of a global computer meltdown on that date.  The theortical meltdown would occur on  01/01/00.  It's just a more fun date and most people don't (didn't) know the difference.

 

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Reply #16 - Jan 19th, 2004 at 4:34am

Hagar   Offline
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Quote:
Long story short.  We all know the real millenium started on 01/01/01.

This can only be the case if all this based on Jesus Christ's 1st birthday. If it's based on the day he was born (as with any other birthday or anniversary) it would have to be 1st Jan 2000.

It would all depend on who first decided on the date of Christ's birth, when this was agreed & which calendar was used. I don't know much about these things myself but I'm fairly certain the actual date is not known. Some say he was born during the summer months rather than near December/January. I'm not sure if the exact year is known either - by whichever calendar you use.

The Roman calendar would have been in use at the time these events took place. The Roman numerical system has no way to define zero. This was in use right up until recent times. It's still in use to today for certain documents (all Hollywood film copyright dates until very recently) & would certainly have been used by the translators of the Bible. You can write 10, 100 or 1,000 in Roman numerals (X, C or M) but there is no way to write 0. I suggest this is the most likely explanation for the missing year dot.

PS. While all this is very interesting I still think this discussion is pointless. The "great event" is over & done with & has been duly celebrated. I'm reasonably confident that none of us will be here to worry about when to celebrate the next one.  Wink
 

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Reply #17 - Jan 19th, 2004 at 9:26am

Felix/FFDS   Offline
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Quote:
This can only be the case if all this based on Jesus Christ's 1st birthday. If it's based on the day he was born (as with any other birthday or anniversary) it would have to be 1st Jan 2000.


... and with theories abounding that JC was born anywhere from 3 years "BCE" to 3 years after "CE", and even the time period, the millenium change could have happened anywhere between 1997 and earlier this month (JAN 2004)!

Either way, the CELEBRATION was 31-DEC-1999 to 01-JAN-2000, and that's good enough for me.  (was it a Spitfire Mk.Vb or Vc that shot you down?)
 

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