Simviation Forum - animating spoilerons and aerobrakes?

Feb 13^th, 2003 at 6:24pm

guimero Offline
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Hi again

Can someone tell me how to animate my spoilerons? Is there a stock animation name for them?

What about the aero brakes? the ones that is FS you press the "/" to activate them.

Sad

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Reply #1 - Feb 14^th, 2003 at 2:22am

JohnP Offline
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Need to know what design program you are using? Gmax, FSDS1 or FSDS 2 or something else. This would help, so as to give you an answer.

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Reply #2 - Feb 14^th, 2003 at 5:57am

guimero Offline
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Sorry

I am using FSDS2

Please help me Sad

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Reply #3 - Feb 14^th, 2003 at 10:34am

JohnP Offline
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First of all I finally found the definition of a spoilereon, which is as follows:
Spoileron mixing (AKA Fall out the sky button)
Spoilers generally act as air-brakes and are used to lose height or speed without picking up speed. Spoilerons are simply a two servo aileron setup using the ailerons as flaps as well, except that the flaps go up instead of down. The up-going ailerons cause less lift to be created by the wing as well as adding more drag, slowing the model down and making it lose height quickly.

Spoilerons are often used on funfliers to lose height or speed quickly, on landing to prevent bouncing or in spot-landing to suddenly lose height and land when over the spot. In 3D flight spoilerons can be used to alter the aerodynamic properties of a wing, resulting in all kinds of outrageous maneuvers.

Based on that and after looking up the animations for this in FSDS 2 There is no real "flag" for a spoilereon.
The closest is spoiler, which you call a airbrake. These are located in the keyframe animation section. The tutorial on keyframe animation in FSDS 2 is pretty good.
FSDS 2 does not allow for custom motions, like fsds1 which had SDLedit for this. This is a general answer to your problem. Maybe if you could let me know the plane that you are working on, I could help you better.

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Reply #4 - Feb 14^th, 2003 at 10:53am

guimero Offline
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plane finished!!!

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that is right spoilerons are basically control surfaces helping the ailerons do their job of rolling the plane.

they open as aero brakes creating drag therefore reducing lift. So if for example aircraft wants to roll clockwise the right spoileron will open as an aero brake but left spoileron will remain still and therefore would help ailerons.

I am actually doing a design of a new plane for the university and my job is to incorporate the plane into the fs2002 so it is not an existing plane. (it is my first project so I am not very expirienced)

The thing is my a/c has spoilerons and want to animate them with FSDS2. (Eg like the 747 or the 737 of dreemfleet does)

I don't know how to do this animation HELP Sad

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Reply #5 - Feb 14^th, 2003 at 11:06am

JohnP Offline
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As I mentioned, this sounds like a custom motion, which FSDS 2 is incapable of. You might try posting to either daviator or Felix. Daviator has found ways of doing animations by copying and pasting. I will continue to do some research so I can help you as much as I can.
Also look at the FSDS 2 help section, within the program and check the tutorials on keyframe animation. This will explain the mechanics of it , so as to give you a better undestanding.
Post again if any questions on this.

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Reply #6 - Feb 14^th, 2003 at 11:38am

guimero Offline
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Thanks John

I think I have learned the basics of key frame animation I have animated my landing gear and my double slotted flaps with it.

I just cant figure out the thing for the spoilerons. How should i name the parts etc...

What about the normal aero brakes how should I name these parts? I have look at the stock and keyframe animation but have not found anything that I could use.

Sad

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Reply #7 - Feb 14^th, 2003 at 11:48am

JohnP Offline
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After looking at microsoft's 747, and seeing exactly how they set up there motion, I would suggest setting up two sets of spoilers on the wing. This would be done by making one set and copying and pasting another set over the first set. Set one, you would label as spoilers(keyframe animation) and the second set I would label as an airleon. The spoilers work off the / key and the airleon works off the side to side motion of the joystick or keyboard. Try this and let me know how you make out.

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Reply #8 - Feb 14^th, 2003 at 1:07pm

Felix/FFDS Offline
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JohnP- you're on the right track here.

In the case of spoilerons, I would suggest playing around with the following:

four sets of hafl-ailerons -
l_aileron_bottom, r_aileron_top
r_aileron_bottom, l_aileron_top

in the config file, the aileron motions are "limited" to - left deflection "up" =0 and right deflection down=0.

the r_aileron_top (located just over the l_aileron_bottom) and l_aileron_top (located just over the raileron_bottom) have their pivots/axis rotated 180-deg in z direction so the l_aileron_top "down" is visually "up"....

in the same corresponding pivot points, tag small parts, usually almost invisible cubes .01 on the sid, as spoilers, animate their action as spoilers (l_spoiler_up, l_spoiler_down ... link the corrseponding parts (l_spoiler_down parent of l_aileron_down; l_spoiler_up the parent of r_spoiler_up ...etc)

Alternatively,you could tag the ailerons "lever_stick_right_left" and keyframe the aileron animations directly

I haven't tried this out so some experimentation may be needed to get the right effect (maybe you make the ailerons the parents of the "spolers"...

BTW - FSDS2 can make complex motions, just as gmax can, with the correct tags and keyframes, and with conditional displays.

Quote:

After looking at microsoft's 747, and seeing exactly how they set up there motion, I would suggest setting up two sets of spoilers on the wing. This would be done by making one set and copying and pasting another set over the first set. Set one, you would label as spoilers(keyframe animation) and the second set I would label as an airleon. The spoilers work off the / key and the airleon works off the side to side motion of the joystick or keyboard. Try this and let me know how you make out.

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #9 - Feb 14^th, 2003 at 1:18pm

guimero Offline
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plane finished!!!

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Cool Guys

My aerobrakes work fine now.

. I just need to play now with the spoilers and see what happens. I will be trying what Felix told me looks very promessing. But first is time to eat some food!!!

I Will let you know of the outcome very soon.

Thanks again guys.

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Reply #10 - Feb 14^th, 2003 at 1:28pm

JohnP Offline
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Felix,
Thanks for jumping in with more information on this subject.

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Reply #11 - Feb 14^th, 2003 at 7:10pm

guimero Offline
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plane finished!!!

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AHHHHHHHH Spoilers is driving me crazy Angry

Ok Felix I have tryied your suggestion but It does not work and I don't understand why not. I have been trying to do the right wing and I have done as follows:

Create: l_aileron_bottom, r_aileron_top. The r_aileron_top has its pivots/axis rotated 180-deg in z.

I Have crated the invisible cubes (.01), animated their action as spoilers and name them (r_spoiler_up, r_spoiler_down and link the corrseponding parts as (r_spoiler_down parent of l_aileron_bottom; r_spoiler_up the parent of r_aileron_top).

The result is that when I press the "/" key in FS2002 the spoiler(l_aileron_bottom, r_aileron_top) moves up

. But when I move joystick to left or right nothing will happen. (l_aileron_bottom, r_aileron_top) won't move at all. Cry

HELP

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Reply #12 - Feb 14^th, 2003 at 7:46pm

guimero Offline
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plane finished!!!

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Sorry Felix What I said is wrong for some reason my FS2002 was not working properly.

Now I have restarted computer and the spoilerons move when i move the joystick. Though the movement is not right cause both l_aileron_bottom, r_aileron_top move but not in phase. I will be keep working on it.

Please let me know if you have any new ideas.

Thanks

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Reply #13 - Feb 15^th, 2003 at 8:48am

guimero Offline
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plane finished!!!

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hi again

Now the thing works more or less. The spoileron move when I press the "/" Key +when I move the Joystick left or right. THe only problem is that: For example considering the right wing. If I move joystick to the left the spoilerons will move down and they should remain still. Is there anyway of stoping this? Can you think of anything Felix?

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Reply #14 - Feb 15^th, 2003 at 10:27am

JohnP Offline
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Looking at your progress, I noted your last post, which is something I was afraid might happen. The spoiler is keyframe animated, therefore it may be possible to set your keyframes, so that they can only go up and stay level. With the tag "airleon", that is the movement up and down. The airleon movement is not keyframe animated, hence the problem.
Hope this helps a little.

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Reply #15 - Feb 15^th, 2003 at 12:16pm

guimero Offline
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plane finished!!!

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Hi john!!

Sorry I don't understand your last post. What do u mean by saying " with the tag aileron"?

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Reply #16 - Feb 16^th, 2003 at 2:57am

JohnP Offline
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The "tag" means the motion name that is assigned to a part. In your case the airleon is the part name that you would use in fsds 2 to give the part movement. The airleon movement is up and down(+90/-90). The problem that you are using this "tag" for your spoileron. When you turn your plane to the left ,the left spoileron should stay up and the airleon stay up. The right wing's airleon should go down and the spoileron should remain flat, instead of going down into the wing.
Hope that was not to confusing.

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Reply #17 - Feb 16^th, 2003 at 10:12am

guimero Offline
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Ok I see what you mean. But I think I just going to leave it the way it is, I haven't got time to play around with the spoilerons Cry

. I have to finish off other things and start looking into the a/c .cfg and .air file.

Thanks anyway.

If anyone manages to get the spoilerons working properly please let me know.

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Reply #18 - Feb 16^th, 2003 at 5:39pm

RIC_BARKER Offline
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Guys, the way I did it is this:

In the "keyframe animation" table in FSDS2, there are two entries called "l_spoiler" and "r_spoiler". Just tag your parts as that, and have Keyframe 0 as the "flush" position, and Keyframe 100 and the deployed position.

Compile your aircraft and start up FSedit. Go to the Flight dynamics page and click the "controls" tab. In the bottom right hand corner there is a section called "spoiler".

Check "spoilerons available" and set the max deflection of your spoilers.

Save and close FSedit.

Now located the aircraft.cfg file and open it up in notepad. Under the section marked "Aircraft geometry" there will be some lines like this.

   spoiler_limit       = 60.000
   spoilerons_available = 1
   aileron_to_spoileron_gain = 3.000
   min_ailerons_for_spoilerons = 10.000
   min_flaps_for_spoilerons = 0.000

If not, add them in. The values are self explanatory, except for "aileron to spoileron gain" This basically means (if it's set to 3, as it is here) That if the max up limit of your AILERONS is 20 degrees, then to get a 60 degree deflection in the spoilers, the ratio must be 3:1.

These numbers are a good start, but play around until it looks right for you.

Hope this helps you guys out, any problems or questions, just post them and I'll try to help!

Regards, Ric B.

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Reply #19 - Feb 18^th, 2003 at 2:24am

juri Offline
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Finland

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ric, you took the words out of my mouth (keyboard?), thats the way i've done it.

but there is a problem: what if the plane has two sets of spoilers, and only the outer ones act as spoilerons. the inner ones are "ground" spoilers and should act only when the wheels are on ground, brakes and reverse thrust is beeing applied...

tricky. any ideas?

"Persistence and determination are omnipotent." -Calvin Coolidge

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Reply #20 - Feb 18^th, 2003 at 5:49am

guimero Offline
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plane finished!!!

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That is exactly the problem I have.

Though it is normally the inner the one that act as an spoileron. The outer is a grounded one like you say.

Has anyone have any sugestions for this problem?

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Reply #21 - Feb 18^th, 2003 at 10:18am

juri Offline
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Finland

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i don't know if we see the inner and outer the same way, but i think its the outer (from fuselage) ones that usually act as spoilerons ???

"Persistence and determination are omnipotent." -Calvin Coolidge

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Reply #22 - Feb 18^th, 2003 at 5:16pm

RIC_BARKER Offline
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"Shazzam"

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Hmm, you are right this is tricky!

Faced with that, the way I would do it is to animate the spoilerons as I stated above, but animate the spoilers like this.

Take the ground spoilers and remove all animation tags, (so they are flush to the wing) but set the display condition to "on ground" and "false". These will only show when the main gear is off the ground, and will remain stationary all the time.

Copy and paste these ground spoilers and tag the second set of ground spoilers as "l_spoiler" and "r_spoiler". Set the display condition to "on ground" and "true" with a value range of "1=0" and "2=100" so they display only when on the ground and between keyframes 0 to 100, ie, the whole range.

This means you will have spoilerons that respond to roll, and also act as "airbrakes" while in the air. The ground spoilers will only work on the ground.

I think this should work, if you have problems, email me and I will try to animate it for you if you want.

Ric B.

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Reply #23 - Feb 18^th, 2003 at 6:02pm

guimero Offline
Colonel
plane finished!!!

Posts: 52

That is what I did earlier on with my spoilers. But the thing is that doing so they will not activate when the "/" is pressed. They will only work whe plane is on ground. And looks a bit weird a plane taxing with the spoilers deployed. Or perhaps I did somenthing wrong.

Anyway I am running out of time. I have now to edit the air file and cfg file.

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